Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 137

Thread: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

  1. #51
    Registered User Colin Lindsay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tandragee, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    416

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gellie View Post
    There are some other video clips that better illustrate the sound of Donal Lunny's Yairi bouzouki. I just haven't put them up. Like Garry says, my point is that Donal Lunny has had for the most part small bodied bouzoukis starting off with his Abnett which he played for quite a while and features in quite a number of his earlier albums. I have owned an Abnett bouzouki and a cittern in the past. Both were reminiscent of the 'Lunny' tone because of the three pieced staved back in which Roger Landes alluded to Herb Taylor's prototype.
    I think a lot of the evolution has come through what exactly is being played. The early days of Planxty featured bouzoukis and mandolas etc as accompaniment instruments to pipes or whistles, playing tunes or harmonies, with Christy Moore’s guitar providing the strumming background. When Andy for example became a solo musician he moved to a more mellow, guitar sound hence the guitar bouzouki or the bass bouzouki; warmer and less strident. Donal also developed the bouzouki strumming prevalent on his solo albums to complement or back-up pipes or fiddles and again appears to have gone for larger, deeper bodies for that bass accompaniment sound. If I listen to Mozaik, for example, Andy's melodies appear more strident and treble from smaller-bodied instruments that need the projection; other solo albums feature the beautiful mellow lower bass strings to complement his voice.
    As the bouzouki (and as Francis J says, I never refer to it as ‘Irish’ bouzouki over here) becomes more and more of a replacement for the guitar we’ll see more of those warmer, mellow instruments to complement it's smaller cousins.
    Incidentally it’s one of the reasons I sold my Gazuki, firstly people thought it was just a guitar, and secondly I couldn’t get the stage projection I needed to be heard over small pipes and flutes in my last band. It was great when recording but not on stage.
    "Danger! Do Not Touch!" must be one of the scariest things to read in Braille....

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Colin Lindsay For This Useful Post:


  3. #52
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Orgiva, Spain
    Posts
    1,439

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Colin, I really appreciate your insights from your own experience playing different types of Irish Bouzoukis. In order to play with small pipes and flutes you need some cut and projection and a Gazouki did not quite have it. Gazoukis are good for soloists, duos, and bands where the bouzouki is the principal backing instrument.

    The teardrop-shape with a flat-top or an arch-top provides more projection and cut in a band situation. The bouzouki player in Llan de Cubel does wonderful backing when combined with a guitar in a similar manner to Ciarran Curran and Dáithí Sproule in Altan. In both bands a Sobell long necked Irish Bouzouki is being played. Eamonn Doorley manages to get his Foley to project in Julie Fowlis's band. He does play a Gazouki now (perhaps a Sobell). The flat-tops project and sound better in an acoustic setting perhaps.
    Nic Gellie

  4. #53
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Frankly I think the term "bouzouki" should be reserved for the Greek version, and use another term to designate the "Irish" model ... But I guess that issue's dead, and the name has to do double duty.
    Well, if "mandolin" can mean a Gibson-style carved instrument, a flattop, or a bowlback, then surely "bouzouki" can signify more than one thing.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mrmando For This Useful Post:


  6. #54
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Well, if "mandolin" can mean a Gibson-style carved instrument, a flattop, or a bowlback, then surely "bouzouki" can signify more than one thing.
    I guess if they can call the little archtop f-hole guitar instrument that is tuned like a real Neapolitan mandolin a "mandolin", all bets are off.

  7. #55
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Lindsay View Post
    Aren’t we going full circle here? Irish musicians take a greek bouzouki with the longer scale and replicate it using a cittern body and a longer neck. They call it the Irish bouzouki. They then shorten the neck to practically standard OM and tune it GDAE but call it the ’short-scale Irish bouzouki’….. next they’ll widen and flare the body, go for six strings tuned EGBDAE and call it the Irish guitar…
    But it wasn't a "cittern body." There is very little correlation between a cittern and the original Irish bouzouki bodies, unless you are referring to Sobell's "cittern" design, which came later and was no doubt influenced by early Irish bouzoukis as well as the "mandolin with a tenor banjo scale length" that Dave Richardson of the Boys of the Lough commissioned and which inspired Sobell (who was then building lap dulcimers) to give it a go.

  8. #56
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Lindsay View Post
    As the bouzouki (and as Francis J says, I never refer to it as ‘Irish’ bouzouki over here)
    FWIW, I think the construction "Irish bouzouki" developed outside of Ireland, perhaps in the US or UK or Australia, to avoid confusion. Obviously, if an Irish person is playing Irish music on a bouzouki (of whatever sort) they would have no need to use the "Irish" adjective as a qualifier. I think it's analogous to the use of "Spanish" guitar in the US, first for the gut strung instrument and eventually for all guitars that were played by fretting the rather than using a slide to distinguish them from "Hawaiian" guitars. (Gibson's code for it's early electric guitars was "ES" followed by a model number, which stood for "Electric Spanish.") It made sense at the time when guitars were still fairly rare in American life.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to zoukboy For This Useful Post:


  10. #57
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    560

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    as well as the "mandolin with a tenor banjo scale length" that Dave Richardson of the Boys of the Lough commissioned and which inspired Sobell
    Ah-ha, so that's what this is? Always wondered...thanks Roger!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lochabar No More.jpg 
Views:	143 
Size:	116.5 KB 
ID:	128460

    Long as I'm asking about mystery instruments, can you please tell me what this is if you know? One of the elusive Sobell pin-bridges?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MI0003343841.jpg 
Views:	139 
Size:	44.0 KB 
ID:	128461
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  11. #58
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson View Post
    Ah-ha, so that's what this is? Always wondered...thanks Roger!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lochabar No More.jpg 
Views:	143 
Size:	116.5 KB 
ID:	128460

    Long as I'm asking about mystery instruments, can you please tell me what this is if you know? One of the elusive Sobell pin-bridges?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MI0003343841.jpg 
Views:	139 
Size:	44.0 KB 
ID:	128461
    Mike,

    The one on the BotL cover might actually be Dave's first Sobell. The earlier instrument - whose maker I do not know - can be seen in this illustration:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	boys_lough_second_album_1973.jpg 
Views:	137 
Size:	9.4 KB 
ID:	128462

    In the Andy photo that is a Sobell bouzouki with a pin bridge.

  12. #59
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson View Post
    Ah-ha, so that's what this is? Always wondered...thanks Roger!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lochabar No More.jpg 
Views:	143 
Size:	116.5 KB 
ID:	128460
    Looking closer at it I am almost sure that is an early Sobell. Very similar to these:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sobell_early2.jpg 
Views:	136 
Size:	42.0 KB 
ID:	128464

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sobell_early.jpg 
Views:	134 
Size:	16.8 KB 
ID:	128465

  13. #60
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    560

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    Mike,

    The one on the BotL cover might actually be Dave's first Sobell. The earlier instrument - whose maker I do not know - can be seen in this illustration:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	boys_lough_second_album_1973.jpg 
Views:	137 
Size:	9.4 KB 
ID:	128462

    In the Andy photo that is a Sobell bouzouki with a pin bridge.
    Thanks Roger - I'd always thought the one on the cover of the second BoTL album was a fantasy illustration by someone who didn't have the instrument handy. You can see a nice illustration of the other one on the cover of "The Piper's Broken Finger":

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	R-2491008-1290687722.jpeg.jpg 
Views:	137 
Size:	79.4 KB 
ID:	128466

    Looks like a volume and tone control on it, but it's just water drops.
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  14. #61

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    dup

  15. #62

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    On that BOTL Cover, I've seen a headstock like that on a Manson and an Abnett... but that fretboard seems overly wide - probably just a fantasy sketch...

  16. #63
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    On that BOTL Cover, I've seen a headstock like that on a Manson and an Abnett...
    Interesting, but I am fairly certain neither Manson nor Abnett were the source of Richardson's first octave mandolin. It's been a while since I talked to him but I am confident that I would have remembered it since I am well familiar with them and their work. That first instrument Dave got was by a builder in Scotland or the north of England but I didn't get his name. I am trying to find out, though.

  17. #64
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    560

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    Interesting, but I am fairly certain neither Manson nor Abnett were the source of Richardson's first octave mandolin. It's been a while since I talked to him but I am confident that I would have remembered it since I am well familiar with them and their work. That first instrument Dave got was by a builder in Scotland or the north of England but I didn't get his name. I am trying to find out, though.
    Cool, hope it works out Roger.
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  18. #65
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    On that BOTL Cover, I've seen a headstock like that on a Manson and an Abnett... but that fretboard seems overly wide - probably just a fantasy sketch...
    Could be, but I do remember Dave referring to that cover. I have not been able to find a photo of it online.

  19. #66
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    I just love the threads and tales of the origins of our now 'modern' CBOMs. It's fascinating, and as a budding luthier, I appreciate knowing the history as much as I can. Thanks to our CBOM historians
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  20. The following members say thank you to Rob Zamites for this post:


  21. #67
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    I have been collecting data on this for quite some time. I will post bullet points eventually but need a few more details.

  22. #68
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    1,645

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    I think I have an old Frets magazine with an interview with Dave Richardson which might clear up the origin of his first zouky/citterny thing. I will look this evening. Interesting reading the comments about the Lunny sound. I suspect it is as much Donal as the instrument. He has had quite a number of instruments over the years. I made his a flat-top pin bridge instrument 12-13 years ago which he used for a couple of years, including the first Mozaik tour out here in 03 or 04, but he told me it was too responsive for what he wanted to do and then he found the Yairi. The top then split when he left it in a car in Okinawa and I don't know what happened to it after then. It has always been interesting to notice that the shorter scale octave mandolin seems to have become more popular in the US than in Europe and that the thinking behind them is more the sturdy carved Gibson approach than the lighter European bowlback mandolin style. Trying to track down the originasof the American octave mandolin or octave mandola has been interesting. They were around early last century, but fell out of fachion in favour of the tenor mandola. Rich Westerman made some in the late 70s. I have a photo of Alex Finn and another member of De Dannan with a couple of Rich's instruments, including a short scale bouzouki like object . That is as far back as I have been able to track a modern octave mandolin, but I am happy to be corrected. The new book will have a lengthy section on the history of the (Irish) bouzouki and I think I have a fairly definitive story there

    cheers

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Graham McDonald For This Useful Post:


  24. #69
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    I think I have an old Frets magazine with an interview with Dave Richardson which might clear up the origin of his first zouky/citterny thing. I will look this evening. Interesting reading the comments about the Lunny sound. I suspect it is as much Donal as the instrument.
    Hello Graham!

    I am sure you are right about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    It has always been interesting to notice that the shorter scale octave mandolin seems to have become more popular in the US than in Europe and that the thinking behind them is more the sturdy carved Gibson approach than the lighter European bowlback mandolin style. Trying to track down the originas of the American octave mandolin or octave mandola has been interesting. They were around early last century, but fell out of fachion in favour of the tenor mandola. Rich Westerman made some in the late 70s. I have a photo of Alex Finn and another member of De Dannan with a couple of Rich's instruments, including a short scale bouzouki like object . That is as far back as I have been able to track a modern octave mandolin, but I am happy to be corrected. The new book will have a lengthy section on the history of the (Irish) bouzouki and I think I have a fairly definitive story there
    Re: octave mandolins - several flat-backed tenor mandolas/octave mandolins were made by the Larson Brothers and badged with William Stahl's label. I have seen at least two of these in person.

    As far as the modern instrument in the mold of Gibson arched top/back mandos the first one of those I ever heard of was a Monteleone owned by Darol Anger which he and Mike Marshall played on the Rounder LP "The Duo" released back in 1983. I suspect that was not the first one built coming from a "Gibson-esque" perspective though I have no earlier citations of the term "octave mandolin" or of any similar instrument. As you noted there were tenor mandolas, and I know of at least one Greek builder who built a four course bouzouki decades before Hiotis that was meant to be tuned G2D3A3E4 but to my knowledge it was a one-off.

  25. #70
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    1,645

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    In the early days of last century there was considerable discussion (especially in the pages of The Cadenza) on the virtues of the tenor and octave mandolas. At the 1908 convention of the American Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists & Guitarists it was decided that the tenor mandola was the fit and proper instrument for mandolin orchestras, rather than the octave tuned mandola. While some of the manufacturers continued to make octave mandolas, they were very much in a minority and faded from view in the 1920s. They certainly don't turn up in catalogues from the 20s on.

    It is interesting that Monteleone made one in the early 80s. On request from Darol Angar? I knew a musician in Melbourne who had a similar Steve Gilchrist instrument from around the same period. That one has an F stlye mandocello sized body and (from memory) around a 21" scale.

    cheers

  26. #71
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    It is interesting that Monteleone made one in the early 80s. On request from Darol Angar? I knew a musician in Melbourne who had a similar Steve Gilchrist instrument from around the same period. That one has an F stlye mandocello sized body and (from memory) around a 21" scale.
    As far as I know it was at Darol's request, but it should be easy enough to find out. IIRC it looked like a big F4.

  27. #72
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    Re: octave mandolins - several flat-backed tenor mandolas/octave mandolins were made by the Larson Brothers and badged with William Stahl's label. I have seen at least two of these in person.

    As far as the modern instrument in the mold of Gibson arched top/back mandos the first one of those I ever heard of was a Monteleone owned by Darol Anger which he and Mike Marshall played on the Rounder LP "The Duo" released back in 1983. I suspect that was not the first one built coming from a "Gibson-esque" perspective though I have no earlier citations of the term "octave mandolin" or of any similar instrument.
    Well, there is at least one Gibson OM example from 1904. Might have been a one-off, but I'm not sure that's been proven. Here's the Cafe link with photos:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ctave-Mandolin

    If one were inclined... and I am, as an owner and enthusiast of the "Big Gibson" approach to this ... one might draw a direct link between this instrument and what Bruce Weber and others started doing in scaling up the Gibson mandolin design in the late part of that century.

    That Gibson OM is a 21 1/4" scale by the way, which isn't far off the 22" scale length of Weber's standard OM scale length, with 20" as an option.

  28. #73

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson View Post
    Oh damn it all, so sorry to hear that - not the kids having Christmas, I am in the same boat, but the work. Have had to sell many instruments in the past myself, so I relate. That's why I could never have ordered the Andy Irvine books and DVD for myself, but am so grateful my brother and wife got them for me.

    Only one thing to do eh? Get something that pays the bills and hopefully lets you save for a good instrument or two. That's my resolution for 2015. Just glad I have my TC and my bodhran. And if you want something bespoke instead of a used instrument do think about Foley when the time comes Garry - he's in Dublin (no shipping or duty or any of that crap), you could meet the man and tell him exactly what you want. And you'd have a lifetime instrument of great quality and beauty and playability. So I hear anyway. Good luck man!
    did i mention i got my Irvine songbook signed by the man himself?????

  29. #74
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    560

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by garryireland View Post
    did i mention i got my Irvine songbook signed by the man himself?????
    Always a silver lining.
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  30. #75
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lubbock, TX
    Posts
    1,251

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    As far as the modern instrument in the mold of Gibson arched top/back mandos the first one of those I ever heard of was a Monteleone owned by Darol Anger which he and Mike Marshall played on the Rounder LP "The Duo" released back in 1983.
    CORRECTION: The octave mandolin in question was built by Gilchrist, not Monteleone (my bad), and Darol says it started out as a mandola. Waiting for other data like scale length, etc.

Similar Threads

  1. Greek bouzouki
    By Keith Miller in forum CBOM
    Replies: 4
    Last: Feb-01-2008, 8:44pm
  2. Greek bouzouki anyone?
    By micall5 in forum CBOM
    Replies: 6
    Last: Mar-06-2007, 11:53am
  3. Greek Sound on an Irish Bouzouki?
    By Huda in forum CBOM
    Replies: 6
    Last: Mar-19-2006, 7:42pm
  4. Greek Strings on an Irish Bouzouki?
    By Huda in forum CBOM
    Replies: 10
    Last: Nov-21-2005, 5:34pm
  5. Bouzouki(Greek&Irish)
    By in forum Equipment
    Replies: 12
    Last: Nov-02-2004, 12:46pm

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •