Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

[Huda]

Any thoughts on the differences between the Greek and Irish Bouzoukis?

I know about the obvious differences like the longer scale and the bowl-back for the Greek Bouzouki. But what about the more subtle differences? How is the TONE different?

Thanks!

[kmmando]

I don't think they compare at all, actually. The Greek instrument, which is, after all the original one, of some 100 years of building, has a bright, brilliant, shimmering, light sound, and, of course there are many variations on the theme. 3 course (6 stringers) are the oldest form of the larger bodied Greek instrument, and are played in a very different rhythmic way to the more modern 8 stringers, which are a 1950's development, and tend to be used as a lead instrument. They are also tuned differently, the 4 course one also having octave strings, and the Greek makers are very particular about using Greek bouzouki strings, as I found out. They are also bowl backed, flat topped, built lightly of European (or Australian) woods, pretty long scale length, often un-truss rodded, and are lined internally with a reflective metal foil. The detailed inlay on the bodies tends to be done into a thin black plastic plate, which is then checked into the soundboard, and this removal of wood may add to the tone. Perhaps our Greek correspondent can amplify on the subject, as I have a lot to learn from those who really know - the Greeks themselves. They are beautiful instruments.

The modern so called Irish bouzouki is really nothing like this at all! A cousin, maybe, but as different as an A4 is from an Embergher.

The best way to compare them is to try and find a shop that sells both and sit down and try both types. You will find them to be rather different, in my opinion, but both equally valid. Finding Greek ones to try is not easy, but just go to Greece for a holiday and try some. I ended up wih two crackers that way, and had great holidays whilst there.

Incidentally, I completely retuned mine to fifths, so that I could actually play the thing, just to muddy the waters further! And I mainly use it for melody, rather than strumming chordally, which may be the main use of the Irishy bouzouki?

all the best # #Kevin Macleod

[dave17120]

I think Kevin is right. I have both, but play mainly the Irish (as I made it) You could really only compare if they were tuned the same and then used to do the same job..... then you're down to, 'how does this make of Irish bouzouki sound as against that one'. Personal preference?!
Briefly I play more melody, so that may be why I play the shorter Irish. Decide what you want to do with it, then pick one that you like the sound of.
Dave

[Keith Miller]

Having played both types I must say I prefer the Greek but again its all a matter of taste Irish music played on Greek zouk sounds even better to my ears than on an "Irish" Listen to Kevin's CDs both he and Alec Finn play Greek zouks they are the reason I am hooked on bouzouki now, even down to buying Greek Rebetica CDs. You have a lot to answer for Kevin !

Keith

[kmmando]

Well, when I heard Alec in 1976, on the John Peel show, his sound utterly hooked me, so it's a flowing thread of inspiration! However, I'm delighted your hooked, and fully understand the attraction of the Greek bouzouki. I don't actually own an Irish bouzouki at all, and the only thing I have that is roughly in that zone is my Brazilian rosewood bodied Sobell Octave Mandolin, but Stefan's instrument owe a lot to his earlier interest in the European cittern and an early Martin guitar and there are echoes of the shape of the Portuguese gittara in his instruments too. It's actually a great and weighty honour to inspire someone to try an instrument, I feel, and in many ways, it is the key point about music and song - when you feel moved to try something as wonderful as making music, it is one of the great moments in life. I love it!

Cheers Kevin

[BradB]

I'm not even sure exactly what constitutes an "Irish" bouzouki. I usually think of them as a flat-top, flat-back instrument. But the Sobells are carved top instruments and are considered by many as the grail for bouzoukis & citterns. The flat and carved instruments are as different from each other as the Greek bouzoukis are different from either one.

BB

[Paul Kotapish]

Here's a little article I did for Acoustic Guitar magazine a few years back about the history and evoloution of the bouzouki from its Turkish and Greek roots through the many flatbacked and carved variations now available. Photos, resources, links, etc.

Read the story here.

The piece was edited to fit into a magazine feature format, but there's enough material on the subject out there for a fat book.

[steve V. johnson]

Paul,

Thanks for posting that link! I saw that article when it came out, and I have xeroxes of it in the file cabinet. It should be 'required reading' for all CBOM fans! <GG>

Many thanks,

stv

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"... I completely retuned mine to fifths..."

Despite being "the Greek correspondent"-in-residence at the Café I am writing to ask, rather than to answer a question. So, Kevin... in fifths, you say? Do you mean CGDA or GDAE?

My curiosity has been whether a Greek bouzouki —perhaps one with a reinforced/rebraced top—#would be able to sustain the pressure of a (double-course) CGDA-tuned set of strings, becoming ipso facto a mandocello. Now, THAT I would be interested to explore!

I do have my misgivings, though... one would need to be VERY cautious with choice of strings, gauges, etc. Greek bouzoukis, their soundboards being cant-less, might sink, buckle under pressure, horribly and irreparably.

But, hey, dreaming can't hurt—#or CAN it?

Cheers,

Victor

[chinatogalway]

Well both Andy Irvine and Donal Lunny started out on Greek bouzoukis, a few photos of them on stage as late as 1979 still playing the greek version. Planxty 1979

Andy solo on greek zouk

Donal Lunny on Greek Zouk 1973

The Abnet bouzouki is the middle ground, with a 3 piece dished back.....wonderful !

Abnet 3 piece dihed back

Kieron

[kmmando]

"So, Kevin... in fifths, you say? Do you mean CGDA or GDAE?
"

GDAE, top string E, and gauges are about 38 28 16 10, and in pairs not octaves, nice and light. Both have had reproduction bridges built by expert Scottish Luthier Jimmy Moon to take piezo strips under the saddle, as the originals are too narrow. My only comment would be the lack of serious cases for bouzoukis - the flimsy £40 plastic ones the give you are awful.

The tops are holding up fine, the 6 course one is by Victor Dekavallas in Thessaloniki, the 8 string by Bobby Kleftoyannis in Athens. They are superb instruments, and I play them a lot, and adore the sound.

best wishes kevin

[kmmando]

Anyone got a web link for Dekavallas bouzouki maker in Thessaloniki in Greece?

[DavidKOS]

I don't think they compare at all, actually. The Greek instrument, which is, after all the original one, of some 100 years of building, has a bright, brilliant, shimmering, light sound, and, of course there are many variations on the theme. 3 course (6 stringers) are the oldest form of the larger bodied Greek instrument, and are played in a very different rhythmic way to the more modern 8 stringers, which are a 1950's development, and tend to be used as a lead instrument. They are also tuned differently, the 4 course one also having octave strings, and the Greek makers are very particular about using Greek bouzouki strings, as I found out. They are also bowl backed, flat topped, built lightly of European (or Australian) woods, pretty long scale length, often un-truss rodded, and are lined internally with a reflective metal foil. The detailed inlay on the bodies tends to be done into a thin black plastic plate, which is then checked into the soundboard, and this removal of wood may add to the tone. Perhaps our Greek correspondent can amplify on the subject, as I have a lot to learn from those who really know - the Greeks themselves. They are beautiful instruments.

The modern so called Irish bouzouki is really nothing like this at all! A cousin, maybe, but as different as an A4 is from an Embergher.

Not a bad description of the Greek bouzouki! I've been playing Greek tetrachordo bouzouki since I was a teenager, also play trichordo and baglama, but do NOT play Celtic music nor Irish Bouzouki, although I sold them at a music store for years.

Here's a way I've explained it:


The Greek instrument is a lead instrument in a type of Middle Eastern music, the varieties of Greek music like Rebetiko, Laika, Syrtaki, etc. where it's twangy sound is ideal. It's also played with a lot of ornamentation that goes with the melodic style. The two most common versions are the trichordo tuned DAD and the tetrachordo tuned CFAD.

The Irish/Celtic instrument was re-designed to give a strong low end presence, beefed up the body design to make a less twangy, more "solid" tone, and although is used as a melodic instrument found its first great use as a backup instrument. Typical tunings are GDAD, ADAD, GDAE, etc. - and can even have a lower 5th course too sometimes.

Frankly I think the term "bouzouki" should be reserved for the Greek version, and use another term to designate the "Irish" model - I mean, why didn't "blarge" catch on? But I guess that issue's dead, and the name has to do double duty.

[DavidKOS]

Well both Andy Irvine and Donal Lunny started out on Greek bouzoukis, a few photos of them on stage as late as 1979 still playing the greek version.
Kieron

Yup, that's what I heard too, that's how it began.

I think we owe a lot of both of them in terms of developing the style.

[Mike Anderson]

Anyone got a web link for Dekavallas bouzouki maker in Thessaloniki in Greece?

You bet I do: http://dekavalas.gr/.

[Nick Gellie]

I would be careful about saying that Irish bouzoukis all have flat tops. Some are made with an induced arch (i.e. Graham McDonald or Bob Adams of Phil Crump). The induced arch makes the instrument more responsive and makes it project better. In fact the induced arch tops sound not too different from a carved top bouzouki (Sobell) . In some ways either a carved or arch top on an irish bouzouki is one of the differences compared to a flat-top Greek bouzouki.

[DavidKOS]

In some ways either a carved or arch top on an irish bouzouki is one of the differences compared to a flat-top Greek bouzouki.

Good point there, although the whole design of the staved bowl instrument from Greece is so different from the much heavier built Irish versions that there is much more to it than just the type of top.

[Colin Lindsay]

I'm not even sure exactly what constitutes an "Irish" bouzouki. I usually think of them as a flat-top, flat-back instrument. But the Sobells are carved top instruments and are considered by many as the grail for bouzoukis & citterns. The flat and carved instruments are as different from each other as the Greek bouzoukis are different from either one.

BB

I prefer to call mine a flat-back bouzouki or European bouzouki; I always saw Johnny Moynihan’s model as a variant, not a new instrument in its’ own right.
I remember the round back one I played in the early 80s slipped about everywhere on stage and was the very devil to hold and play at the same time, so the shape certainly makes a difference. Mine has more bass than those of the Greek musicians I played with recently; it’s also unison strung so less treble.

[zoukboy]

Frankly I think the term "bouzouki" should be reserved for the Greek version, and use another term to designate the "Irish" model - I mean, why didn't "blarge" catch on? But I guess that issue's dead, and the name has to do double duty.

So... should we give "guitar" back to the Spanish? or go even further and give the word's Persian root "-tar" back to Iran? ;-)

And the root of "bouzouki" is a Turkish word, coming from the term bozuk düzen.

I think "blarge" didn't catch on because it made less sense than "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki," and besides, it was said as a joke, a contraction of "bouzouki + large" for the extra large body 10 string Irish bouzouki made by Andy Manson for Dónal Lunny in the late 70s (IIRC).

[DavidKOS]

So... should we give "guitar" back to the Spanish? or go even further and give the word's Persian root "-tar" back to Iran? ;-)

And the root of "bouzouki" is a Turkish word, coming from the term bozuk düzen.

I think "blarge" didn't catch on because it made less sense than "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki," and besides, it was said as a joke, a contraction of "bouzouki + large" for the extra large body 10 string Irish bouzouki made by Andy Manson for Dónal Lunny in the late 70s (IIRC).

Not an easy issue, eh? Instrument nomenclature can be silly....is that tambor a drum or a lute?

I think I was also making a bit of a joke, knowing how the name "blarge" came about.

[Colin Lindsay]

So... should we give "guitar" back to the Spanish? or go even further and give the word's Persian root "-tar" back to Iran? ;-)

And the root of "bouzouki" is a Turkish word, coming from the term bozuk düzen.

I don’t think the OP advocated not allowing people to use the name, or returning the name to the country of origin; it’s just that if the instrument no longer resembles the thing it is named for and has evolved, then an evolved name might be more apt?
Back in the 1970s everyone was playing the bl**dy things, you could walk into a music shop and buy one off the shelf - which amazingly you can’t do now…

[Nick Gellie]

Basically the term Irish Bouzouki is here to stay whether we like it or not. I am in agreement with Roger that it is a valid name for an instrument that evolved from the Greek Bouzouki. Some of the Irish bouzoukis don't sound that much different to a Greek Bouzouki, especially when played, amplified, and equalised in a band setting.

I have had and played both. I actually prefer the Irish Bouzouki to the Greek Bouzouki because of its tone and playability. The bowl back might offer some slight tonal differences but talking to Bob Abrams the other day I am convinced that the top soundboard's thickness, graduations and bracing play a major role in its tone. There would be of course differences there between the two different types of bouzoukis in the latter respects.

[DavidKOS]

I have had and played both. I actually prefer the Irish Bouzouki to the Greek Bouzouki because of its tone and playability. .

I'm curious, are you playing Greek music or something else? Because I can't see how an Irish instrument would be better for Greek music....but I can understand it if you are playing Celtic music or some other non-Greek music.

I play Greek and other Middle eastern music on my bouzouki, not irish tunes or such, so perhaps we are not playing the same repertoire.

[zoukboy]

For the past several years I have been on a quest to get an instrument that would sound like a cross between an Irish and Greek bouzouki because in addition to playing a lot of melody in Irish traditional music I also play Greek and other Balkan music. I wanted the attack and response of the Greek instrument without sacrificing the bass response of the larger bodied Irish bouzouki. This led me to the original Irish bouzouki made by Peter Abnett. I considered ordering one from him after exchanging emails it seemed he was uninterested in using the woods that I wanted, and the fact that he builds without an adjustable truss rod made me nervous, not to mention the fact that the instrument would be coming from England to New Mexico, an abrupt climate change.

Then I met Herb Taylor at a house concert I was doing in Denver and was taken with his work. He made a very nice raffle instrument for ZoukFest in 2007 and I ran the idea of a staved-back bouzouki by him - he was game and I got the instrument in 2008. It had a bigger, boomier bass than I wanted so he made another, smaller (13" instead of 15") bodied one in 2011 and that did the trick. It is nearly optimal for my playing but now that he has developed the neck-through design (see the prototype here in the MC classifieds) I will be getting a new, small bodied, staved back, neck-through soon.

This approach may not be for everybody, but after decades of playing several Sobells and Stephen O. Smith instruments I was looking for a different sound, one that would hearken back to the early years of the bouzouki in Irish music and away from the more guitaristic sounds that many instruments have. Instead of trying to distance the instrument from its historical connection to the Greek instrument I wanted to strengthen it. YMMV, NFI, etc.

[DavidKOS]

For the past several years I have been on a quest to get an instrument that would sound like a cross between an Irish and Greek bouzouki because in addition to playing a lot of melody in Irish traditional music I also play Greek and other Balkan music. I wanted the attack and response of the Greek instrument without sacrificing the bass response of the larger bodied Irish bouzouki. This led me to the original Irish bouzouki made by Peter Abnett.

Man, that's tough, to get an instrument that will sound good on all of those musical styles. It sounds like you have a good handle on it, though.

So not only Greek and Irish bouzouki style but also Bulgarian tambura music too! Cool.