Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

[zoukboy]

I originally had a 22" Rick Westerman Irish bouzouki back in 1981.

Thanks, Nick.

Anyone else with early experience with the Irish bouzouki, cittern, Greek bouzouki in Celtic music, etc., feel free to chime in.

Kevin and Dagger: when did you take up the instrument?

[DavidKOS]

I have in the past but don't now. I found I preferred to play Greek music on either oud, lavta, or laouto.

lavta, that's the Turkish one with tambur fretting, right? Those are very cool too. Tuned mandolin style in bolahenk tuning if I recall.

[zoukboy]

Greek/Turkish, yes. Nylon strung with four unison courses with a single bass, tuned D2 A2 D3 A3. 27 nylon frets to the octave. Great instrument.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Thanks, Eddie. Do you know the year you bought it?

I think 1975, a friend of mine brought it back from a trip to Greece. It was playable but not great.

[Nick Gellie]

I have in the past but don't now. I found I preferred to play Greek music on either oud, lavta, or laouto.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Roger regarding playing Greek music with an oud, lavta, or laouto. One of my favourite bands here playing Greek music is the Habibis who have both the Greek Bouzouki and the Laouto in their band.

[Colin Lindsay]

Colin and Francis:

I'd be very interested in when you each took up the Greek bouzouki and what inspired you to do that.

Thanks! :-)

Literally, there was nothing else! I could walk into any music shop and browse the oddities and trade-ins, but apart from guitars, keyboards and drums there was always very little in odd or unusual instruments in my area. The bouzouki was bought brand new one day when I spotted it hanging off a shelf, but I tuned it GDAE from the start. I have photos of me playing it when supporting Andy Irvine at a concert in Coleraine, Northern Ireland and he gave me a bit of advice on using heavier strings as it wouldn’t stay in tune; it probably sounded terrible. I had a bodhran, 6 and 12-string acoustic guitar, lyre (for Alan Stivell tunes!), autoharp, bouzouki and a collection of tin whistles; dabbled a bit in electric guitars with some strange cutaway thing that was played by one of the members of Horslips. Later on I added a Tasco synthesiser for Horslips tunes or when Moving Hearts came out around 1981; the bouzouki is leaning against it in the photo. I remember being given a bodhran that had belonged to Sean O’Riada to play at a concert in Portstewart Town Hall back around 1982 so I must have sounded alright to some…

[DavidKOS]

Greek/Turkish, yes. Nylon strung with four unison courses with a single bass, tuned D2 A2 D3 A3. 27 nylon frets to the octave. Great instrument.

Yeah, although I was taught a different tuning by a Turkish musician.

The instrument reads Turkish classical music as if it were tuned C G D A, according to my sources. But this is in "Turk nota" which means that the A actually sounds E (called bolahenk tuning) and thus is really GDAE!

I suppose you could tune it any way you want.

[zoukboy]

Yeah, although I was taught a different tuning by a Turkish musician.

The instrument reads Turkish classical music as if it were tuned C G D A, according to my sources. But this is in "Turk nota" which means that the A actually sounds E (called bolahenk tuning) and thus is really GDAE!

I suppose you could tune it any way you want.

David,

I am aware that there are "sources" that list that tuning for lavta but I don't know a single musician who uses it.

[DavidKOS]

David,

I am aware that there are "sources" that list that tuning for lavta but I don't know a single musician who uses it.

Do you hang out with classically trained Turkish musicians much?
Just curious...and I've seen your tuning used too. By one of the Turks!

It really depends on where you want to tune it I guess, like the Turkish ud, which I've seen usually tuned to the high string having a concert pitch of D, but have seen it at C and as low a G.

That tambur fretting is killer, you can play almost anything on it.

I can also see how the Greek lauto CDGA can easily become DADA.

Anyway, from what I heard last year at Lark camp, the lavta is growing in popularity these days.

[Francis J]

My introduction to Bouzouki was very similar to Colin's. In 1974/5 you had no choice in terms of instrument, and less choice in strings. I tuned mine GDAE, as I was coming from mandolin, and I thought of it as a BIG mandolin. There was no instruction available, and you learned by listening to vinyl records or radio, and there was precious little folk music on radio in Ireland, apart from BBC. I never thought of it as Greek, although I would have heard some commercial Greek style music, and I knew Johnny Moynihan had brought his one from Greece.
The development of a local variation of the instrument was probably as much a result of the lack of availability of decent, serviceable imported Bouzoukis, as a desire to innovate. The makers would have thought about new approaches, not because they disapproved of the Greek method of construction, but wanted to use guitar making skills which they already had perfected. The result was never going to be anything radical, but it solved the issue of availability, and meant that musicians could crossover easily from mandolin or tenor banjo to bouzouki without trauma.
Of course there's also the point that there were very few luthiers in Ireland in the seventies, a handful at most, and as has been mentioned above, the first variations came from England. I've seen a couple of radically different constructions in my time, and have owned a few remarkable ones too, but I've had my Foley, no 309 since 1996, and it should see me out!!
Whatever it is, I call it my Bouzouki

[Francis J]

Edit. double post

[garryireland]

I have the chance to get one on ebay. Truss rod and seems in good nick. Yay or nay?

[Colin Lindsay]

If you want to post the link, we can all give our sixpenny-worth… I promise we’ll not outbid you…

[garryireland]

If you want to post the link, we can all give our sixpenny-worth… I promise we’ll not outbid you…

If you need someone to babysit your Sobell you know where to call!

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks, Nick.

Anyone else with early experience with the Irish bouzouki, cittern, Greek bouzouki in Celtic music, etc., feel free to chime in.

Kevin and Dagger: when did you take up the instrument?

Hey Roger,

I'm sorry, I just saw this thread today as it turned up in the Irish/Portuguese thread that's ongoing at the moment (December 2015). I was away last January and missed it.

So to answer your question almost a year late, I would have probably taken it up around 1977 or 1978 maybe? Quite a lot of Sobell instruments were being played in Scotland at the time. In the mid seventies I was playing mandolin, tenor banjo and guitar. I started mandolin about 1972 I think.

[Colin Lindsay]

My introduction to Bouzouki was very similar to Colin's. In 1974/5 you had no choice in terms of instrument, and less choice in strings. I tuned mine GDAE, as I was coming from mandolin, and I thought of it as a BIG mandolin. There was no instruction available, and you learned by listening to vinyl records or radio, and there was precious little folk music on radio in Ireland, apart from BBC.

Gawd yes! I remember buying LPs and playing them repeatedly, again and again, until I had the tunes note perfect - even down to the trills and embellishments of the musician playing in the recording. I can remember my first half-dozen LPs and it's funny how many of my favourite little throwaway tunes for practice come from those same recordings, even after so many years. No iTunes in those days, so fewer tunes and more time for each one! I used to hunt flea markets - Smithfield in Belfast - for instruments, or record shops like Knights in Botanic Avenue for old LPs of folk musicians. I got my first stereo record player from a junk shop too - a huge 'Elizabethan' set.
There was definitely no instruction with the instruments and the added bonus of THAT was that we came up with our own styles, tunings and other affectations - there was no-one to correct us, but there were also no limits on personal inspiration or technique. The fact that we were broke also meant we had to adapt and overcome limitations such as rubbish frets or cheap strings. Years later I was embarrassed when I couldn't play some of the basic techniques and tunes that other musicians had mastered so simply, but it was only when I realised that I could play MY preferred tunes way better than they could that I realised I had my own style and methodology that was in it's own way, unique. Similarly when I could afford good instruments I found they almost played themselves, it was so easy after years of bent necks and poor manufacture.. To paraphrase Frank Sinatra: we did it our way...
Sometimes I miss heavy black tape and the smell of solder from dodgy cables...

[ollaimh]

my first bouzouki was a greek funky one i found in an antique store on vancouver island



it was free? i bought a sitar and the zouk for 200 bucks, the sitar sold for 350, more than enough to fix up the greek and i was off to the races. i love the delicate and ehterial tone of greek bouzouki, and the big wang sound . irish have more reverbs and punch from the heavier build and strings but equally good for many thing.

so i like both

[ollaimh]

now when i playgreek i have a small collection. like a stathoupoulo that was in pieces in a toronto junk store window--which took a lot of repair but i love the shorter scale and the amazingly loud warm tone from such a small instrument

from 1913, or a sasso from ebay, which also needed repair but a long 27 inch scale

i love the sound of old instruments. same for portuguese guitars. i love the funkier tone of the antique instruments over the big sound of the modern ones.

[DavidKOS]

from 1913, or a sasso ....
i love the sound of old instruments. same for portuguese guitars. i love the funkier tone of the antique instruments over the big sound of the modern ones.

Was that Sasso originally set up as a trikordo? A lot of those early bouzoukis has mandolin tuners but were set up with only 3 courses.

[ollaimh]

i don't know how the sasso was origionally sett up. it came without strings and hadn't been played for awhile. the neck was wider than the stathoupoulo, so i am guessing it was either meant for four courses or with a bass quad row of four strings like some early stathoupoulos and early peleponese bouzoukia. the sasso is loud and jangly but not the tone of the stathoupoulo. the s as an amazing tone for such a small body. he was a real genius!!

in fact i prefer the more metalic and jangly irish zouks as well. if i want lots of bass i play guitar.

i still regularilly play that cheapo i put up pics of first. very punchy and jangly. real mother of toilet seat inlay!!

[michael zwingli]

Hey, Kevin...I can certainly discern your love for the bouzouki from your post, but, ouch!!! Your comments seem to reveal a bias against the Irish instrument. Actually, the Greek bouzouki is not the original, but was itself developed from the Turkish "bozuk", which itself probably has a common ancestor with the oud. The Irish instrument, which is actually more properly called an octave mandolin, was hybridized from Greek bouzoukis and mandolins to be a better accompaniment in Irish music, and more comfortable in session playing. I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.

[zoukboy]

Hey, Kevin...I can certainly discern your love for the bouzouki from your post, but, ouch!!! Your comments seem to reveal a bias against the Irish instrument. Actually, the Greek bouzouki is not the original, but was itself developed from the Turkish "bozuk", which itself probably has a common ancestor with the oud. The Irish instrument, which is actually more properly called an octave mandolin, was hybridized from Greek bouzoukis and mandolins to be a better accompaniment in Irish music, and more comfortable in session playing. I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.

Yeah... good luck with that! :-)

[Dacraw54]

Hey, Kevin...I can certainly discern your love for the bouzouki from your post, but, ouch!!! Your comments seem to reveal a bias against the Irish instrument. Actually, the Greek bouzouki is not the original, but was itself developed from the Turkish "bozuk", which itself probably has a common ancestor with the oud. The Irish instrument, which is actually more properly called an octave mandolin, was hybridized from Greek bouzoukis and mandolins to be a better accompaniment in Irish music, and more comfortable in session playing. I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.

Considering that the term Octave Mandolin and Cittern as used by Americans didn't exist in the 70's in Ireland, and in European Classical circles they referred to different instruments.
Leave the Irish alone, magnificent innovators that they are, and let the replicators cease from inventing 'names'.

[Dagger Gordon]

I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.

I think we're stuck with it now! But actually I agree with you.

[Seter]

I tune my Irish bouzouki like a Greek bouzouki, what does that make it? I usually just call it a bouzouki, plain and simple.