Neuroplasticity and Adult Students

[John Bertotti]

Just a quick note. I have realized that playing 2,3 4, or more hours at a time isn't bad as long as I'm not making a lot of mistakes. I have made more progress by taking the newer stuff in short well practiced bursts. 15 to 20 minutes here and there. A quick scale during the 5 minute commercials. I still sit and play hours on end but when I hit a snag I'll switch to something else for awhile. I will actually stop playing if I'm just of and nothing is going well. I think this is very important for the newer people. You don't want to reenforce the bad technique with repetition. My take on it, John

[John Flynn]

But will it restore all the brain cells I killed drinking large quantities of beer and doing tequila shooters?

You be the judge:

[John Ritchhart]

Thanks, John Bertotti. I think those are good insights. I have about thirty five tunes I'm playing regularly but at different speeds relative to Tef file tempos. Do you think I should continue working on these until they are all clean at speed or should I be learning a new tune at all times? The subtitle of this topic is brain re-wiring, but I think in the case of Frank Wakefield we're just talking "WIRED!".

[mandocrucian]

There's "wired" and "re-wired", but then, there is also "scrambled"!

The neural plasticity thing is all about brain's ability to modify itself and shift its configurations. When you learn a new skill, you are installing new wiring, which maybe suppose means that you are re-wiring your brain (overall). But I don't think it's as much about tearing out old pathways and replacing them with something different, as it is about putting in additional wiring.

So, in learning (just about anything) if you put in the most efficient wiring plan for the project from the early, if not earliest stages, you'll be ahead over the long term. Everyone knows how much of a hassle it is to get rid of bad habits and learn to do it the ergonomically efficient way; it's a whole lot more work overall than get it right the first time around.

So total hours practiced isn't the whole story. If you put in lots of time doing it all wrong and ingraining bad habits, maybe you've stood still in regards to the big picture! With "death grip", and mechanical hurdles, it can be fairly obvious because one can actually see those. But how is it really any different with the mental processes? You could have five different circuits which are haphazardly wired, are of different voltages and can't function with each other and the interactivity is limited if not minimal.

However, there are a lot of folks who who will reject, or tune out, any advice about how to streamline the mental aspects and interconnectivity of the hand/ear/mind. And then they'll complain that they weren't getting instruction 'cos you didn't show them the six flashy trash licks for their fast-food instant gratification wants. I mean if that's the attitude, why bother sit through the first hour (exposition) of a movie, or read the first half of a mystery? #Just go directly to the end for the synopsis/solution. (Yeah, Darth Vader is Luke's father. and, the butler did it.)

So it's better (imo) to put in the best wiring (from which additional circuits can be added) from the outset, than to have to go back and re-wire the fine work of Moe, Larry and Curley.

Also, one thing to remember is that everything feeds into something else or, everything overlaps. So there's no reason not to keep adding new tunes as long you you don't get so overloaded that you start losing retention.

Niles Hokkanen
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Rhythm Mandolin Boot Camp, Oct 23-26
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[groveland]

Niles -

Indulge me while I explore that 'wiring' analogy a bit further - There might be certain wiring basics that should be implemented to provide a good foundation for the 'project', as you said. So I think you have to identify early on what kind of project you are wiring for.

Can you describe in a little more detail what the 'efficient wiring plan' looks like, and when exactly the study of that basic wiring ceases to serve the player, or worse, actually hinders the player?

I can't think of any basic wiring that suited students who eventually became Hendrix, Clapton, or Holdsworth. Also, I saw a matchup between 3 violinists once, and the classical star was completely ill-equipped for jazz and bluegrass, as were the jazz and bluegrass stars for classical.

So it looks like bad habits, except in the most rudimentary sense, are genre-dependent, or maybe even very, very subjective. What do you think?

[John Craton]

Niles makes some very valid points. Again to cite my purely anecdotal observations, I recall one student I had (not an adult but a high school student) who came to me after several years with other teachers. If it were a matter of practice hours only, this young lass should have been playing rings around everyone else her age. She consistently practiced 2-4 hours daily and desperately wanted to become a professional musician. But whether it was because her neural pathways simply weren't cut out for it or because (as I suspect) she'd learned bad technique early on, no amount of practice seemed to improve her potential. It was most disheartening, especially for me, as she simply never progressed much beyond where she was when she first came to me.

As a follow-up to her story (and a good segue into one of groveland's points), this young girl was forced out of music after an auto accident in which she suffered a severe injury to her arm. Tragic as that was, it turned out to be a blessing in disguise as she reoriented her career goals to linguistics, for which she had a tremendous talent. Already bilingual in high school (French and English), she since has become fluent in Danish and Chinese and is doing exceptionally well in her new field -- and is quite happy.

And that leads me to the language/music connection, if indeed there is one. We know that the critical learning age for language is from birth to around age 12. If a child learns a language during this time frame, chances are very good that they can speak it without an accent. One certainly can learn a second language after this period, but the difficulty in doing so is increased exponentially, and they will almost always have at least a mild accent. That seems to correspond with my experience in teaching music as well. Those who learn to play and interpret music at an early age almost invariably play with more musicality than those who come late to the picture. But as with language, if a child is bilingual before turning 12 they can learn a third or fourth language at a later age with much greater ease than their monoglot colleagues. This too seems to carry over to music as it's far easier for a student who has played at least one instrument from childhood to learn another later in life. I would suspect that this is because, as with language, those "circuits" have been established to allow for new pathways.

Now the question comes as to whether different genres in music (classical, jazz, bluegrass) represent different musical "languages." It seems to me that there may be something to that. I was trained classically, and while I can play the notes to jazz or bluegrass music, I have never developed a real "feel" for the music and am quite lost when attempting it. Could not this be related to the same thing? Or is it simply that I've not put forth enough effort through lack of desire to try these other genres? After all, most classically trained musicians can play Bach and Bartok with the same relative ease despite the significant differences in style of playing, so shouldn't we be able to expand that to include different genres as well? I believe most of us could, because we've already developed this ability to acquire new "languages" of music. But the fact appears to be that these are actually different languages of expression.

Or am I just so bored this lazy Sunday afternoon that I have nothing else to occupy my brain?

[mandocrucian]

There's hardware and there's software. #Perhaps I should be using the term "programming" rather than "wiring". #The analogy could be that of a computer and being able to run several different programs at the same time with compatiblity that allows for transmission of data between all running programs. It also has to do with setting up the "file directories" (and mirror sites) so that info is easier to access from multiple locations (memory areas).

The comparison between learning music and language may be somewhat faulty. There is plenty of exposure to music even if the kid never picks up an instrument. Radio, records, television, any singing in school or church.... there's a continual exposure to musical material from birth and a whole lot of that is recorded permanently in your brain. #(Can anyone remember "B-I-N-G-O"? or "Theme From Gilligan's Island"? Or "Green Acres"? Bingo! Case made) #Of course, beginning to play an instrument (or sing) at an early age gives you a head start on the process, probably in the brain soaking everything in differently, if not only from the aspect of more years at it. But there's a whole of latent stuff stored in olf file cabinets of the mind, and if you can tap into and harness those resources, it can make learning easier.

If a kid is raised in a bilingual home, there's that same sort of exposure and they're sure to pick up a certain amount of the other language without trying. I think that even if they never really spoke the language, it would be much less problematic learning it a later age simply because of the their early sonic exposure to it. For the 2nd language comparison to be more valid, I think you'd have to use people who had minimal exposure to any music/radio/tv before age 12 as test subjects.

I don't that different genres are different languages as much as different dialects, at least when talking about Western/Euro based music. These are different stops on a continuum, with a lot of the same raw materials, but with different balances of ingredients in the stylistic recipes. Now, if you want to compare western based music to non-western musics such as Indonesian gamelan, Bayaka pygmy, or karnatic Indian music, etc., then different languages is a good analogy.

Niles H

[John Craton]

If a kid is raised in a bilingual home, there's that same sort of exposure and they're sure to pick up a certain amount of the other language without trying. I think that even if they never really spoke the language, it would be much less problematic learning it a later age simply because of the their early sonic exposure to it. For the 2nd language comparison to be more valid, I think you'd have to use people who had minimal exposure to any music/radio/tv before age 12 as test subjects.

I don't that different genres are different languages as much as different dialects, at least when talking about Western/Euro based music. ... Now, if you want to compare western based music to non-western musics such as Indonesian gamelan, Bayaka pygmy, or karnatic Indian music, etc., then different languages is a good analogy.

Niles H

Points well taken, Niles, and I particularly like your terminology of describing Western musical genres as "dialects" rather than "languages." And certainly for the analogy of music as language to be carried out in a reliable study, we would have to have a set of children who were never exposed to any music whatever. I'm not sure, though, whether the simple act of hearing music (or language) is enough to impress upon the brain what is essential for learning to use the information for speaking/playing/interpreting it. For instance, when our first son was born we made certain he was exposed to a lot of French, Russian, and Hebrew in the home. We didn't expose him to enough for him to acquire a usable knowledge of the languages at the time, but we had hoped it would help him learn them better later on. But when he took French in school, he seemed to have no advantage over his coevals who'd never heard the language before. In fact, he hated his years of French (though he's doing quite well with Japanese at university, a language we'd never exposed him to at all during childhood). Not sure what that means -- if anything -- but it's interesting nonetheless.

Going on vacation tomorrow, so I'll miss you guys for a few days. Hope I can read some more deep thoughts from you all when I return. Cheers!

[mandocrucian]

I received an e-mail from a mandolin playing M.D. Since he doesn't post at the Cafe, here is an excerpt, along with the link to an article which he had attached. #

Hi Niles

I just scanned the 'neuroplasticity' thread on the Cafe, (where I don't post). #From the point of view of a rehab doc, who works with folks damaged by strokes and brain injury, and uses neural plasticity to improve their performance and level of function, I think you are pretty on the mark in your statements about plasticity and neuronal encoding.

There are some points the article makes I think are valid and play into what you have been saying:

1) music, like language, is processed in a distributed (computerese: parallel) manner
2) different features of music are processed in different specific areas of the brain, as is the case in language (e.g. phonetic reception, phonetic production, vocal intonation, verbal rhythm, grammar, cognitive categories, are all done in different local areas and coordinated by other areas)
3) anatomical areas specialized for a particular function on one side of the brain may be serving different functions and contain different neurological networks of synapses on the other side of the brain.

Research Shows Correlation Between Music and Language Mechanisms

NH

[John Ritchhart]

Niles, do you think teaching techniques in music education can or need be changed to better take advantage of learnings in this area of how the brain works? Is it possible to get better results from adult students with newer understanding of neural mapping? How are your techniques different from classical teaching methods if at all? I remember you had us sing the notes as we played them etc. What can be done to improve fine motor movement and control(speed)if this is a function of the cerebrum? Would training be different for cerebellum functions? Sorry for the ramble, but I find this area fascinating.

[Tom Smart]

I was trained classically, and while I can play the notes to jazz or bluegrass music, I have never developed a real "feel" for the music and am quite lost when attempting it. Could not this be related to the same thing? Or is it simply that I've not put forth enough effort through lack of desire to try these other genres?

Operaguy--I'm not addressing this specifically to you, because I don't know you and your listening tastes, etc.

That said, I've heard variations on your statement many times. Often, it's a classically trained violinist who shows up at a jam wanting to learn "fiddlin'" because it looks so fun. Perhaps they're attracted to the social aspects of jamming, and want to learn how to get in on the fun.

They might ask me for tips and advice on learning the style, complaining that it just doesn't sound right when they play a tune out of their Fiddler's Fakebook or whatever. But if you ask them what bluegrass or old-time fiddlers they like, they usually draw a complete blank. If you ask them how many bluegrass or old-time CDs they own and how often they listen to them, the answer might be "one or two and almost never."

I think to learn to play within a particular style, you have to immerse yourself in that style. You have to listen to artists in that style whenever you get a chance. You have to wake up in the morning humming the music. You have to have a burning desire to sound just like Vassar or whoever else you admire. And you have to play with like-minded people whenever you get the chance--not just read in the Fakebook for a few minutes to relax after you're done practicing your Bach partita for the day.

I love all types of music, but I immerse myself mostly in the types I want to play.

[John Ritchhart]

I play the partita to relax, it's Rawhide that's killing me.

[PaulD]

Wow! I just came upon this thread and it touches on issues that have intrigued me about our brains, talent, and learning ability for a long time. To pick up at the end of the thread, I think Tom makes good sense. I had a Celtic band for awhile that a classically trained flutist and I "accidentally" started. She was learning pennywhistle and could sight read better than any of us but had a hard time getting the "feel" of the music rather than precisely playing the notes. Through listening to that style of music I think she developed a great feel for the music, even though she was still dissatisfied. It did take immersion for this to happen; listening to Celtic music, attending concerts, practicing, playing in the band. Her training made her the "best" musician in the band (if you ask me), even though I'm better at improvisation and learning by ear than she is (not good, just better!).

There are so many components to learning music, as others have pointed out. When I don't practice regularly I find that some things fade quickly (speed at sight reading standard notation, ability to play certain tunes up to speed, etc) whereas others are like riding the proverbial bicycle. My muscle memory for scale patterns and feel for rhythm don't seem to fade as quickly, although they do after a long hiatus.

Tom is a very accomplished fiddler... I've never asked him but I would bet he practices (or plays) regularly almost every day. Or he started very young... or both. I find the fiddle tests my practice regimen more than the mando; I figure I need to put in about 1 hour per day of running scales or running through tunes that I know and another hour working on technique and new material if I really want to progress. For awhile I had that time and I saw the benefits, but not for the last few years. I'm lucky if I can find time to keep my intonation, bowing, and repertiore listenable!

[Tom Smart]

You're too kind, Paul. Thanks.

I do practice or play somewhere just about every day, but my "practice" isn't very rigorous in the sense of doing scales and etudes and other things that are "good for you." I'm trying to do more of that stuff, but the temptation to throw on a CD and noodle along is very strong.

I started fiddle at 19, but had played horn and trumpet in the music program since 4th grade. I was a natural on horn, and found it very difficult to switch over to strings. You play a horn directly with your lips and lungs--there's an immediate connection and feedback loop with your body. But when I moved to fiddle and other string instruments, I had a feeling that I was wrestling with a foreign object, trying to bend it to my will. I still struggle with this. However, without the early exposure to making music, I think I'd struggle even more. Thank heaven they still had music in the schools in those days.

Since I got the mando bug a few years back, the fiddle doesn't get to come out of its case nearly as often. I'd say I work on mando every day, and the fiddle when I get around to it. Fortunately, the mando tends to strengthen the fiddling anyway--better sense of intonation, better visualization of the fingerboard, etc.

Missed you at the Dam Jam...

[Mike Buesseler]

I was a natural on horn, and found it very difficult to switch over to strings. You play a horn directly with your lips and lungs--there's an immediate connection and feedback loop with your body.

I expect Niles will jump in here soon, but there was something in this comment that reminded me of something I've heard Niles, in particular, say--but others, too--that singing whatever music you are trying to learn is a more efficacious way to learn to play it. # Not that this ties up this whole subject in any way, but I didn't read it mentioned here, so far, and kept thinking it would come up. #And, so it did. #

Now, this whole thread has been about how age affects the ability to learn music (and language, I guess, maybe a few more things...) #But, what about something like luthery? #It's at least partly an art, requires brain/hand coordination (duh!). #But, it seems like plenty of luthiers get started at a later age--in fact, I've never heard of a prodigy luthier. So, what's up with this? #Why are the skills and talents(?) required by luthiers suited so well to the mature brain? #(I don't mean to hijack or derail this thread...if this seems irrelevant, I'm prepared for being ignored here... )

[mandocrucian]

Do you think teaching techniques in music education can or need be changed to better take advantage of learnings in this area of how the brain works?
Probably. Different systems would benefit from tweaking in different areas, emphasizing some underemphasized areas while de-emphasizing other areas (in that particular point of the program). While#different systems all have their particular strengths and weaknesses, in the overall picture, their design may have been to train someone for a particular "job position" or "function", and it is simply that the unemphasized areas are not really required for that job.

Is it possible to get better results from adult students with newer understanding of neural mapping?
Who needs the understanding - the student or the instructor? #

How are your techniques different from classical teaching methods if at all?
The sequencing of materials/ideas/techniques are different. The classical way seems to be "Practice these exercises oer and over until your fingers can do them; then go on to the next page. No explanation at that time as to what one is practicing/rehearsing, the possible practical improv applications, etc. Rote physical repetition. It doesn't mean that system won't produce some excellent players; the technical abilities of classical students are usually much further along than non-classical players, but they have all that technique and don't know what they can do with it, other than play the music that the conductor gives them to play. (musical class system? you are but a gear in the machine)

What can be done to improve fine motor movement and control(speed)if this is a function of the cerebrum?
Practice. The hands are going to take as long as they're going to take. But if you know why you are practicing something and how it could be applied, or simultaneously train the ear and/or mind while you train the hands, it won't turn into repetitie drudge work.

Would training be different for cerebellum functions?
?

Niles H

[Tom Smart]

Metaphorically related to the topic of neuroplasticity:

As they learn, most fiddle players struggle with the feeling that the bow is a foreign object with a mind of its own--unlike the direct control you have over your voice or even your left-hand fingers. I know I struggle with that sense of "otherness."

One trick I often use for overcoming that feeling and gaining better control is to visualize the nerves in my right hand and fingers actually growing out into the bow and extending all the way out to the tip. I try to actually feel the bow on the string with the same vividness as if I were touching the string with my fingers.

It's interesting to think that this visualization may actually be helping new neurons to grow in my brain, creating a representation there of the bow as an actual extension of my arm.

[PaulD]

arbarnhart's sig line says:

"First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
Charlie "Bird" Parker

Tom; I suspect this is about where you are... in the "just play" mode! I've told you before how much I like your fiddling... it's very tasteful and you cross over styles well.

I find noodling with a CD or even while watching TV is a good exercise (try to play along with the theme tunes and jingles by ear). It's certainly not a substitute for directed practice, but I find it's helped my playing.

I'm not qualified to speak to modern cognitive developmental theory but Tom's experience bears out what I've heard and think I've observed over the years. I suspect his musical background with brass instruments laid the "wiring" for playing music for the rest of his life. Practice on the stringed instruments developed the motor skills that allow him to tap into the musical training he had when he was younger. Consistent "playing", whether in the form of practice, noodling, or jamming helps keep all the skills sharp. That's not to say there's not always more to learn.

I didn't have the benefit of musical training when I was a kid... I picked up the guitar virtually for the first time when I was 19 (25 years ago) and the mando a year later. I don't know how much the "wiring" when you're young has to do with the ability to learn music, how much is the "blank slate" of learning while you're young, how much is raw talent, or how much impact the time contsraints we have as adults has. That's why this thread intrigued me. Whatever the case, I don't feel like I will ever become a really proficient musician. I do know that when I can direct time to playing, studying, and practicing I see continual improvement. As someone said earlier in this thread; the goal for me is not to become the next Mike Marshall or Dawg, just to continue to improve, have fun, and hopefully bring enjoyment to others.

Hijack: I was disappointed that we couldn't make the Dam Jam... I was planning on being there Saturday. Cate and I moved into a new house toward the end of last week, through the weekend, and we're still moving more or less! &lt;groan&gt; It's going to be nice, but her mando hasn't come out of it's case since I brought the instruments over and the only one of my instruments to get any playing time since last Wednesday is my F-9. We'll host a jam when we get settled.

pd

[Tom Smart]

Gee, Paul, thanks again. If there were a "blushing" smiley, I would insert it here.

For the first decade or so of &#92;working on fiddle, I progressed very slowly. Sometimes the instrument wouldn't come out of its case for weeks at a time. Then I got into a band, which got me playing more and got me used to being in front of an audience. But I still wouldn't open the case for days at a time, and progress was still slow.

Then, about seven or eight years ago, my little brother was in town and I spent some time jamming with him. I remember like it was yesterday thinking two things: "Man, I really want to work harder at this and try to get to his level" and "that mando sounds so cool; I'm going to spend more time messing around with my mando."

Maybe a year or two later, I discovered the Sugarhouse Park jam, met a lot of people with different repertoires and approaches, and found a lot of other jams. I used all of that as a springboard for learning new styles I had never attempted before (bluegrass, swing, etc.) as well as learning to improvise more freely than was allowed in the old-time music I was most familiar with.

It's only in the last seven or eight years that I've worked on music almost daily, and in that time I think I've learned more and come further than I did previously--dating back to when I first picked the fiddle up in the mid 70s (or when I bought my first mando in the early 80s). I'm still not at the "just play" stage, but that's a good goal to shoot for.

Playing the horn "by the dots" in school is so different from the instruments and music I do now. I think it gave me a better ear, a love for classical music, and the idea that all kinds of music should be played with feeling. It gave me the idea to try fiddling, since I used to look at the violin section with envy. It probably it gave me other things that carry over to what I do now, but I'm not sure what they are.

In any case, most of what you hear in my music today has emerged in the last seven or eight years of playing a lot more and trying new things. So I'm a firm believer that adults can go as far as they want to with the right commitment and immersion.

[billkilpatrick]

[QUOTE] I read in a magazine article that activities like playing a musical instrument have been shown to have a positive effect on preventing altzheimer's disease and other mental challenges of aging.

so, sitting hunched up in a chair with a dazed and vacant look, playing the same thing over and over and over again ... slack jawed and drooling ... it's just a phase then, is it?

[PaulD]

Tom; Since this thread has to do with learning, I'll paraphrase what Ryan Shupe said at that fiddle workshop a few years ago: "The best way to get better is to join a band." That's when I invited Elaine over to play guitar in our accidental Celtic band. She ended up being the stronger fiddler on most stuff, our whistle player had invited a better guitar player to join, and I ended up playing primarily mando. It forced me to practice both mando and fiddle... the commitment to the band and learning new tunes, that is. It was great fun; I'm looking forward to doing the band thing again when I can make time.

Hijack2: As a horn player maybe you can appreciate Papa John Creach's fiddling (Jefferson Airplane, Hot Tuna). In an interview he said his style came from only having access to a fiddle but not knowing what it was supposed to sound like. He was only familiar with jazz music played on horns, which translated wonderfully IMO.

[Tom Smart]

"Join a band to get better" is good advice. Now that I'm in two bands, I have the opportunity to try to get twice better.

I love Papa John Creech. I have a short film about him on video. I'll have to dig it out and watch again. There's some good footage of him playing sweet jazz, quite a contrast to the Airplane stuff he's famous for.

I never played jazz on horn, and for that matter, I've never heard anyone else do it. Someone must have explored that; it would be interesting to hear. Anyway, I've heard similar things about several of the older jazz guitar and violin players: Not having anyone else to base their playing on, they tried to make their instruments sound like Louis Armstrong (or whoever).

[Mike Buesseler]

I really enjoyed reading this thread and hate to see it fade so soon...especially before we really got to the meat and potatoes, i.e., specific things that the adult learner (or maybe everyone) should be doing.

All this brain wiring and learning theory is interesting, but could someone list--in a general, but specific way, several really solid, generally accepted techniques that we can use to improve our learning curve, if not our playing curve?

I know this is like asking for the meaning of life, or something, but this whole thread was skirting around some pretty profound stuff. #I just kept waiting for a Secret of the Masters or two . #

I'll start the list...

1. Play with others whenever possible.
2.

[billkilpatrick]

2. ffcp

[Hog on Ice]

3. If you primarily learn tunes by reading (notation or tab), try learning more tunes by ear. If you primarily learn tunes by ear, try learning more tunes by reading.

(Bill, could you expand on how to use ffcp to improve adult learning? I'm still in the 'slack-jawed and drooling" stage)