Getting started with classical/balkan in central US?

[FishOutOfWater]

I'm myself interested in playing eastern-European/Balkan music on mandolin, e.g. Greek, Bulgarian, Turkish, old-world Klezmer, etc. Living in the central US though, it seems like most of the focus from teachers and stores is bluegrass and jazz.

I don't yet own a mandolin. I do have some experience with classical cello. So my thought is I'd go with a classical mandolin approach, as it seems Avi Avital did -- I like how it sounds when he plays Balkan music. And find a flat-top/oval-hole mandolin in the $300 range. Unfortunately it seems like local music stores only have F style mandolins, if any, and their sound just doesn't seem to be quite what I want, too 'plunky' (but maybe that's more because they're usually cheap?). Nice places like Elderly Instruments are a long drive away. So I was thinking of either placing an order for a Seagull S8 or Kentucky KM-272 through a local store, so at least I can return them easily if they don't sound good. Alternatively, I could order a vintage bowl-back mandolin from Jake Wildwood, but that seems to involve more unknowns.

Am I thinking through this right, or am I missing something?

[catmandu2]

My solution was accordian: scads of great sounding (italian) accordions around for $300. But cheap German accordion are good for this music, or perhaps preferred is eastern European accordion - all cheaper than fine Italian.

Can't think of a better way to get into this music. Unless of course, it has to be mndln..

[Ranald]

I'm no expert in either classical or Balkan music. However, I'm interested in Balkan music, having hung out with Serbs in high school. I fool around with a tamburitza, a lute-type instrument, and find that Balkan music also sounds good on mandolin. I recently bought "Balkan Music for Mandolin" by Allan and Aleksandra Alexander, which I learned about through Mandolin Cafe ads. It's quite a good book with CD containing relatively straightforward tunes. I suspect that you're right in wanting some classical training to begin with, but others can advise you on that. (David KOS, are you out there?) Good luck, and don't be too quick to get an accordion. The Balkan book is available at:
http://www.mandolinandguitar.com/balkan_mandolin.html

[kurth83]

I know a little classical. You can play classical on anything. If you want to be true to the genre, a bowlback from germany or italy is the way to go.

For teachers, artist works has a great classical mandolin series, taught by Caterina Lichtenberg herself. That one requires you to be able to read music, and probably have some basic skills in playing. I had a few years of bluegrass first

I am currently trying to obtain a flat-top oval hole myself from Red Valley but they are more than $300.

[DocT]

https://rachelcoats.com/lessons/?fbc...ex6AAtEM9IVzX8

I am not certain if Rachel Coates can help, but she has a degree in music. She specializes in teaching guitar (acoustic and electric), bass guitar, mandolin, violin, viola, cello and double bass. She teaches via Skype.

[erichkopp]

This caught my eye the other day:

https://larkinthemorning.com/collect...roducts/man034

$200 for an all solid wood mandolin is a bargain. I believe the back on it is somewhere in between a flat and bowlback shape. I haven't seen one in person, but it's made in Romania so could be a perfect starter instrument with a good setup.

[Seter]

This caught my eye the other day:

https://larkinthemorning.com/collect...roducts/man034

$200 for an all solid wood mandolin is a bargain. I believe the back on it is somewhere in between a flat and bowlback shape. I haven't seen one in person, but it's made in Romania so could be a perfect starter instrument with a good setup.

That is a Hora instrument, they are good for money but do need quite a bit of set up work. I have a Hora bouzouki and formerly had their acoustic-electric octave mandolin. They are affordable because of minimal bling and final set up work, but they always use good solid woods. Sound should be good, but playability will depend on how well you or a luthier can set it up.

If the Seagull or KM-272 are properly set up to play well and sound good to you, either would be a good option. The bowlback would also be a perfectly fine choice, Jake Wildwood's instruments should be well set up.

[DavidKOS]

Unfortunately it seems like local music stores only have F style mandolins, if any, and their sound just doesn't seem to be quite what I want, too 'plunky'
......
Am I thinking through this right, or am I missing something?

There are some new bowlbacks from Sakis, for example, that are nice instruments for the money.

Some fine players have used other style mandolins for various styles of music, but those instruments are hard to find on a budget.
Also there lots of old Gibsons that are not in demand for BG music, etc. They offer a nice value too but still cost some bucks.

I suspect that you're right in wanting some classical training to begin with, but others can advise you on that. (David KOS, are you out there?)

Those Hora Seter mentioned are OK if you do the setup.

As for method books, there are plenty of them out there!

" eastern-European/Balkan music on mandolin, e.g. Greek, Bulgarian, Turkish, old-world Klezmer"

That's a lot of what I like playing, although I do not play much Bulgarian Balkan music; I like various Greek styles, Turkish music (many Turkish musicians begin on mandolin then move to saz or oud), old-world and pre-revival-American Klezmer, Russian balalaika music, etc.

Any of the traditional classical methods will be good for this. Many are available free online.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Scuola_del_Ma...nier%2C_Carlo)

http://www.federmandolino.it/listing...per_mandolino/

http://www.mandoisland.de/

look up 'Mandolinenschulen"

[Jim Garber]

I'm myself interested in playing eastern-European/Balkan music on mandolin, e.g. Greek, Bulgarian, Turkish, old-world Klezmer, etc. Living in the central US though, it seems like most of the focus from teachers and stores is bluegrass and jazz.

I don't yet own a mandolin. I do have some experience with classical cello. So my thought is I'd go with a classical mandolin approach, as it seems Avi Avital did -- I like how it sounds when he plays Balkan music. And find a flat-top/oval-hole mandolin in the $300 range. Unfortunately it seems like local music stores only have F style mandolins, if any, and their sound just doesn't seem to be quite what I want, too 'plunky' (but maybe that's more because they're usually cheap?). Nice places like Elderly Instruments are a long drive away. So I was thinking of either placing an order for a Seagull S8 or Kentucky KM-272 through a local store, so at least I can return them easily if they don't sound good. Alternatively, I could order a vintage bowl-back mandolin from Jake Wildwood, but that seems to involve more unknowns.

Am I thinking through this right, or am I missing something?

FishOutOfWater, I think there is a little confusion here with some of the posts on this thread. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are really interested in mostly playing eastern-European, Balkan music and want more sustain than the commonly available f-hole carved tops. I would suggest a decent quality flattop (if that is the case) like a Big Muddy, Crystal Forest and the like. The big problem is the $300 range. BTW I can tell you that the Seagull S8 is a nicely built mandolin but does not have super sustain or deeper bass that a larger instrument. I know a few players here like the Kentucky model you mention and that might be fine. Also be aware at Avitai is a brilliant player and also plays on a Kerman mandolin which are no longer made AFAIK and besides cost about $7000USD.

As for bowlbacks, even though I am a big fan and like to play them, I always hesitate to recommend them to people forst starting out on mandolin. Assuming you find a quality one that sounds good for that price, you may still find that the awkwardness of holding them properly might be a barrier to your learning the proper method. Unless you have a teacher locally who can guide you, I would avoid them.

IMHO and within your price range I would buy something that appeals to you, get it set up properly. Despite what some people say, there is no such thing as a "classical" mandolin. Classical players play a fairly wide variety of instruments, even F-5s. Get something that is pleasing to your ears, playable to your fingers and will get you into playing whatever music you are interested in.

I would also suggest that you let us know where you are geographically. There may even be some MC folks here who could let you play their instruments or can suggest stores and teachers in your area.

[DavidKOS]

As for bowlbacks, even though I am a big fan and like to play them, I always hesitate to recommend them to people first starting out on mandolin. Assuming you find a quality one that sounds good for that price, you may still find that the awkwardness of holding them properly might be a barrier to your learning the proper method. Unless you have a teacher locally who can guide you, I would avoid them.

IMHO and within your price range I would buy something that appeals to you, get it set up properly. Despite what some people say, there is no such thing as a "classical" mandolin. Classical players play a fairly wide variety of instruments, even F-5s..

Heck, the F-5 was invented as a classical mandolin!

Any mandolin that you play classical music on is a "classical" mandolin.

Jim has lots of good advice. The only thing I do not agree with is not beginning on a bowlback.

Many of us have.

It's really no problem to hold correctly, even standing with no strap. The sound is the issue, if a beginner wants that sound, then it's actually easy to learn to hold the bowlback since you'll like the tone and put in the effort.

Also, there are often mandolins on ebay in your price range, of all sorts of designs. You have to really shop for them, though.

Don't overlook all the Japanese made bowlbacks, either.

[Jim Garber]

The only thing I do not agree with is not beginning on a bowlback.

Many of us have.

It's really no problem to hold correctly, even standing with no strap. The sound is the issue, if a beginner wants that sound, then it's actually easy to learn to hold the bowlback since you'll like the tone and put in the effort.

Also, there are often mandolins on ebay in your price range, of all sorts of designs. You have to really shop for them, though.

Don't overlook all the Japanese made bowlbacks, either.

My point on bowlbacks is based on my experience with quite a few beginners and even advanced players who gave up entirely on playing because of a difficulty in figuring out how to hold it properly while playing. Of course, if the OP has his/her heart set on a bowlback then he/she will put up with that. Also regarding Japanese bowlbacks, Suzuki ones (or other brands like Conqueror or Kent, also made by Suzuki) seem the most commonly ones found in North America but many of them in the OP's price range will be very disappointing for tone. Many of these are over-built, especially the ones from the 1970s. They are usually cheap, though, for a good reason.

I still recommend a flatback mandolin for someone starting out, especially if you are intending to play classical, Balkan or other demanding genres and are within a lower budget.

And bear in mind (as I repeat myself) I love my bowlbacks. My first mandolin was a circa 1910 American Conservatory bowlback. They have a distinct sound and I do marvel at the design and workmanship in my vintage American and Italian instruments.

[DavidKOS]

My point on bowlbacks is based on my experience with quite a few beginners and even advanced players who gave up entirely on playing because of a difficulty in figuring out how to hold it properly while playing. Of course, if the OP has his/her heart set on a bowlback then he/she will put up with that.

.....
I still recommend a flatback mandolin for someone starting out, especially if you are intending to play classical, Balkan or other demanding genres and are within a lower budget.

And bear in mind (as I repeat myself) I love my bowlbacks. My first mandolin was a circa 1910 American Conservatory bowlback. They have a distinct sound and I do marvel at the design and workmanship in my vintage American and Italian instruments.

Jim, I do know of folks that say it's hard, but everyone I showed the 3-point hold learned to play bowlback mandolins, bouzoukis, lutes, ouds, sazes, etc.

I do agree that some mandolinists seem to have trouble with bowls. Look at how many folks use a strap on any mandolin! I never owned a mandolin strap.

And I agree that a good flat-back is a fine beginner's choice. My main custom-made instrument is a flatback.

[Seter]

If you want to branch out into tamburitza instruments to further explore Balkan music, they can be had fairly cheaply as well. My bisernica was about $200 and is a nice luthier-made instrument.

[catmandu2]

I really dig all the strings in the music too. And they play a vital percussive/ryhthmic role. Wind instruments, violin, of course voice have the melody down. But I love the drones - hammering on the drones and intonation of a big box flat-top.
Ever since I started gtr I loved the sonorities as much as the harmonies. Everyone gets to groove in this music.

Too, I'm for oud, saz..

Re accordion, listen to some a hammering on the cajun box but also the melodies +rhythm sound very nice across some fine reeds.

*but I digress. So I recommend playing them on all the instruments you can - whatever you get your hands on. Start singing the melodies until you get something. It's some fine music.

[Seter]

[FishOutOfWater]

Thanks for all the info! My updated plan is to order a Matsikas MD-001 from Thomann Music, and a Kentucky KM-272 from the local guitar big box store (or perhaps a Washburn MW-0), and keep whichever works better.

The Big Muddy MW-0 also looks good, but just a little bit more than I was hoping to spend. Crystal Forest mandolins look nice, but it doesn't seem like they've got any mandolins up for sale currently?

I don't have anything against buying a used instrument from an individual, it just seems more overwhelming since there are more variables. (I'm in Urbana-Champaign IL since someone asked.)

[erichkopp]

Yes! What's the real little instruments some of them are playing? Something like a piccolo mandolin but less strings?

[Ranald]

Yes! What's the real little instruments some of them are playing? Something like a piccolo mandolin but less strings?

All the instruments are tamburitzas or tamburicas. The little one can be called either a prim or bisernica -- I have one myself that I bought in a second hand store, and had set up. It's a nice little instrument, especially if you find a mandolin to be large and unwieldy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamburica

[Jim Garber]

Jim, I do know of folks that say it's hard, but everyone I showed the 3-point hold learned to play bowlback mandolins, bouzoukis, lutes, ouds, sazes, etc.

I do agree that some mandolinists seem to have trouble with bowls. Look at how many folks use a strap on any mandolin! I never owned a mandolin strap.

And I agree that a good flat-back is a fine beginner's choice. My main custom-made instrument is a flatback.

I should say that I too have figured out the best way for me to hold them. I think I did even start out playing them when I was forty pound heavier and had a convex gut. I even played my Embergher and soloed in part pf Vivaldi Am violin concerto (on mandolin) at one of the Carlo Aonzo workshops. BTW the mandolin did fine even competing with another guy's Dudenbostel F-5. Do no underestimate the power and musicality of a quality bowlback.

[DavidKOS]

Do no underestimate the power and musicality of a quality bowlback.

Well said!

[FishOutOfWater]

I'm curious to see if the bowlback is difficult as some find it. I figure I might as well try now, since in the future I might pursue bouzouki or baglama which seem pretty rounded too.

Do no underestimate the power and musicality of a quality bowlback.

I don't suppose the Matsikas counts as 'quality'?

I guess I'll find out!

[erichkopp]

You know, I don't have any difficulty with a bowlback and don't remember finding it too awkward when I first played one either. I think one's body proportions might be a factor, and everyone's different. I also hold the fiddle on my chest/in the crook of my arm, so it could also be that I'm used to an instrument kind of floating around while I play it. Give it a try and see!

[FishOutOfWater]

I ended up getting a Washburn M1SD, as well as ordering a Matsikas through Thomann music. I'm glad I took the risk on the Matsikas bowl back. I actually find it a little easier to hold the Matsikas, it seems a little lighter and more balanced.

The Matsikas is quieter, but I'm not looking for volume. Tone seems decent for both of them, not as different between the two as I expected. I like the appearance of the Matsikas a lot better, it has a nice clear finish that allows you to see the wood figure. Granted, it's not showing off any super high grade wood, but I still prefer it over a painted/plastic look. Planning to return the Washburn.

[John Goodin]

Fish, now that you've settled on a first mandolin you might (if you haven't already) drive up the road to Normal and check out a rehearsal or a concert of the Orpheus Mandolin Orchestra. There might be a Balkan enthusiast in the group. You also might find yourself tempted by the prospect of joining a mandolin group. The folks I've met from the Orpheus orchestra are very friendly.

Here's the link to their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/categ...7327961344614/

You also might want to put on your calendar the 2019 convention of the CMSA (Classical Mandolin Society of America) that the Orpheus will be hosting in October. There is bound to be something interesting for you there plus the opportunity to rehearse and play with the largest mandolin orchestra in North America. The convention moves every year so it's unlikely that it will be this close to your home anytime soon after this year.