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Thread: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandolin

  1. #1

    Default Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandolin

    My friend's father plays Irish folk music, has many instruments, and is a also hobbyist luthier (joiner by trade). He currently owns this flat-backed mandolin with an unusual double soundboard (which you can see through the sound hole). It has no maker's markings or indications on where it's from or who made it.
    Having trawled through lots of online forums and images, I haven't seen anything quite like it, especially anything with a second soundboard like this one.
    The owner often acquires such instruments to tidy up and sell at swap-meet-type events, primarily to kids to get them interested in playing. With this particular instrument, he wants to be sure its not of any significant value or rarity before he parts with it.
    Can anyone provide any information about it?

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    What is the general area where your friend's father is located? That might help narrow down the list of possible luthiers.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Hi and thanks for responding.
    We are in Wellington, New Zealand, though Bernie (friend's father) is Irish (1960s émigré), plays Irish folk music, travels back to Ireland periodically to play and visit. I think he acquired this instrument here in NZ, though.

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  6. #4
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Sorry, but I can't ID that mandolin.

    However, I'd love to try playing it. It looks like the size, shape, and concept of mandolin I may really like.

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  8. #5

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Further to my query, and with regard to the responses above, I will ask Bernie about where he acquired this mandolin from and any other pieces of information, however small, that he might have. I could also possibly upload a sample of how it sounds - he mentioned that it played quite nicely with a good sound to it.

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  10. #6
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Looks like it was derived or related to bowlbacks made by Umberto Ceccherini but looks much more modern than those. The headstock resembles some DeMeglios and I have seen those nice stained bone tuning buttons. Do you have any additional photos to post? The back of the neck often indicates a period of manufacture of mandolins made in Napoli.

    One other possibility is that it was an older one refinished more recently. There were also some makers in Catania, Sicily who incorporated double tops.
    Jim

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  11. #7

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Do you have any additional photos to post? The back of the neck often indicates a period of manufacture of mandolins made in Napoli.
    Hi and thanks for the input. The only other photo I have is this one ↓ , which is out of focus, but I will get some more images and details when I can.

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    By modifying my web searches a bit with some of your info, I also managed to find this instrument in a July online auction. It looks very similar to Bernie's one, particularly the headstock, and also has an unusual sound-modification feature. The seller mentions the name of an English luthier, one George Matthews, but the link to his instrument is unsubstantiated.

    Now, I realise I could be barking up any old tree that rustles suspiciously here, but I figure that any lead or little bit of info might nail down the origin of this instrument, so I hope it does so.

  12. #8
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Looks like it was derived or related to bowlbacks made by Umberto Ceccherini but looks much more modern than those.
    Not sure it's all that similar to Ceccherini's system -- his second top was much close to the main soundboard, less than a centimetre gap. This one looks to be suspended in the middle of the soundbox, more like a Virzi.

    Not seen anything like it. Looks nicely made, though. If in doubt, Catania sounds about right. I suspect the bridge is newer than the rest of the instrument.

    Martin

  13. #9
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    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    (Edit: Taking back comment on gear shape due to too-fuzzy photo. Sorry!)
    Last edited by EdHanrahan; Oct-21-2018 at 8:21pm. Reason: not so sure!
    - Ed

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    Our mistakes weren't quite so easy to undo
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  14. #10

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Hello again. I have managed to get some more photos of this unusual mandolin, plus a bit more info about it, so hopefully someone might be able to help with its maker/origin.
    Note that there is a pair of sound holes visible on the sides of the body, which, so it seems, are quite unusual and rare to be seen on a mandolin. There are also some images which give a better view of the double soundboard, the tailpiece, and the neck.
    Bernie says when he got it, despite being playable, all parts being present and intact and originally very well made, it was in a poor state of repair. He bought it here in New Zealand from an elderly lady who was unable to give its origin but said it had been in the family for many years.
    Being the master luthier that he is, he set about restoring it to its current state. He says the bridge may have been replaced at some point in its life, though not by him. The original finish was also probably a bit darker, perhaps similar to this one I linked to earlier, which, at this point, seems to be the closest match in terms of body shape and acoustic oddities.

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    Anyway, hopefully this further info (and the images) will help to unearth some more. Thanks to all who have looked and offered comment so far.
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    Last edited by mungus; Nov-03-2018 at 5:55pm. Reason: reformat images

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  16. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    I wonder how much "tidying up" Bernie has done on this mandolin. You might ask him what work he did on it. It looks like he refinished it completely and replaced the frets with thicker modern frets. It would be hard to determine what would have been original to this particular mandolin since we don't know even where it was made and much of its originality is not longer evident.

    mungus, have you played it and are you interested in acquiring it. It looks interesting but frankly it would not be anything super-valuable IMHO. Could be fun to own especially if it sounds good.
    Jim

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  18. #12

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    George Matthews was a banjo maker- we have one, it belonged to my great-grandfather. It is possible he made mandolins. However, Britain's biggest banjo maker was Arthur Windsor, and his company is reputed to have made mandolins in the early 20th century but most were imported- as were the Windsor guitars. It was easier and less expensive to buy from Germany, Italy or Bohemia than to make them in England- unlike banjos which are mainly metal instruments- metal being a Birmingham staple product. The tuners on the mandolin look to be German and early 20th century but were sold across Europe. In fact, my Windsor mandolin that was made in Markneukirchen has that headstock shape but there is a heart cut in it. I think Italy, Sicily may be the more likely origin of the instrument but it is hard to be definitive without some extra info.

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  20. #13

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Hi, Jim. The restoration was only surface refinishing. The instrument was pretty solidly made and intact and there was no substitution or replacement of any of the components - just the surfaces, particularly the top, that were worn and scratched and so got refinished. As far as he could tell, all of the parts were original but that doesn't mean to say that it didn't have something replaced earlier within its lifetime.

    Personally I don't play and Bernie, despite being a luthier, only plays accordion, so I couldn't get a decent recording of it to upload. His fellow musicians that he plays with say it plays very nicely with a good overall sound, though. I have no interest in acquiring it - I just wanted to help him find out what we can about it, kind of as a quid pro quo for a joinery project he's helping me with (and I like to solve a mystery)...

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  22. #14

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Hi, Nick. Thanks for your response and info.

    Sicily seems to be a popular suspect for the origin of this unusual mandolin, though perhaps there's also some English possibilities, as you suggest. From all the images and info of mandolins I've looked at, this one seems to have similarities in shapes and parts with some in some ways, yet with others in other ways - like a hybrid of several different makers or regional styles.

    As for further information, I think I've relayed all the information we know about it here. If anything else comes up, I'll post it here. I'm still keen to get a definitive origin or maker for it but I'm aware that that might never happen...

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  24. #15

    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    The shape of the back looks Gelas-like. I think the instrument is French-inspired to a degree.

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  26. #16
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help to identify this double-soundboard flat-back mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    The shape of the back looks Gelas-like. I think the instrument is French-inspired to a degree.
    There is something similar about this and some of the French designs. Thanks for the comment.

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