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Thread: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

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    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Which oil-based varnish that uses plant based natural resins has been successful and liked?

    If it's hand made, what is/are resin(s), oil(s) etc.
    If it's commercially made, what is brand and recipe name?

    Also, what coloring did it have, and how dark
    Lastly, how would you describe it as far as flexibility, hardness, how easily it is damaged and of course any tonal qualities you feel it exhibits over other finishes

    Reid

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Walnut oil. That's about it, matching your criteria exactly. It polymerizes eventually, over the course of many years. You can find some recipes for old-school violin varnish online, but almost all have some non-plant based additives.
    Tung oil is also good (not the stuff from Home Depot), or linseed oil.
    All of these are expensive, take forever to cure, but are great once the years-long aging process has taken place.
    Last edited by Marty Jacobson; Oct-20-2018 at 3:30pm.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Old Wood varnish and grounds are very high quality and high priced. It is made for the violin market but should work for mandolins......

    https://www.oldwood1700.com/en/

    Their ground system gives a lot of color to the wood before any varnish is applied and looks great under finish.
    Charley

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    There are a great many plant based resins used in violin varnish. Many recipes are secret and proprietary. Some ingredients from plants that are known to have been used include turpentine, rosin (pine resin), sandarac, gum ammoniac, gum benzoin, copal, and dammar. Often violin varnish also includes seedlac, sticklac, or shellac (all insect based) and some recipes call for amber (arguably a mineral, but actually fossilized tree resin).

    The resins all have the same action, to serve as plasticizers, and to give the varnish body, durability, and flexibility. Each has their own characteristics and violin varnish makers go to a great deal of trouble to come up with what they consider the ideal combination.

    The oil must be a drying oil. Raw linseed oil will not polymerize, it must be “boiled” (modern versions have a chemical dryer added, not actually boiled).

    There are less expensive violin varnishes that use synthetic resins, usually alkyd. I used one of these with great success. If you want natural plant based resins in your varnish, you have to pay a lot more. The ingredients alone are quite expensive because they are very labor intensive to harvest and process.
    Don

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    If your local library has a copy of Ed. Heron-Allen's old book, "Violin Making As It Was and Is," you can learn more than you ever wanted to know about oil varnishes, spirit varnishes, and the oils, gums, and resins that are used to make it. There is an appendix that lists dozens of gums and their origin.

    International Violin Company and Metropolitan Music sell many of these materials, and Int'l Violin also offers a few brief instructions.
    Howard Core also sells varnish supplies, but their prices are much higher.

    There are several tutorials on youtube on varnish making. Making varnish can be risky business-- it has to be cooked, and all the ingredients are quite flammable. The excellent video on "1704" varnish [a spirit varnish] discusses the hazards and recommends that the varnish be prepared outside.

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    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    I was at one of the Oberlin summer workshops a few years ago where a well know violin nerd was giving a demonstration of his secret Stradivari cooked varnish formula. Everything I've ever read says Do Not Cook Your Varnish or it will blow up. He dismissed this about two minutes before the entire thing blew up, caught the workbench on fire, and everything went crazy, the fire department showed up and it was full blown chaos and effectively terminated the weeks workshop. I will admit that it did turn a beautiful shade of red just before the explosion!

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    I'd say the varnishes used by the Cremonese violin makers are pretty successful. Some of them still look great after 300 years. Although there's a lot of argument about how they were made, the majority view seems to be that the basic ingredients were very simple: a drying oil (linseed or walnut) and pine resin. How these are cooked together to create a workable and durable varnish, and how to achieve the colour are the big challenges. If you check out the fiddle makers sites (eg Maestronet) you'll find all you want to know and more about varnish making, as well as recommendations for the best bought varnishes.

    Making oil varnish is a lot of fun, and it you're sensible and do it outside it's not too dangerous. I've made some batches which seem promising enough to try on mandolins. The last ones are made from rosin cooked with glycerine to make an ester ('ester gum'), which was commonly used in commercial varnish in the early decades of last century. It could even have been an ingredient of the Gibson factory oil varnish.

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    First thing that most folks ignore is deciding what you want from yor varnish. Without that musing about exotic ingredients is like musing about food in the center of desert when you need water.
    Violinmakers go for those exotic natural ingredients because they believe that's what Stradivari used Strad didn't have anything else to choose from) and they are paid for as close reproduction of original as possible even if it will not be durable (most Strad violins have almost no original finish, all is worn). OTOH, if you are making mandolins folks expect nice shiny durable surface that will not kill tone. This can be easily achieved with variety of modern finishes
    and durability will be much much better than any alchemistic concoction...
    I used and made spirit and even cooked oil varnishes from hand picked materials years ago and I use modern finishes as well and I don't see the reason for all the hype about all natural ingredients unless you want to replicate something.
    Adrian

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    First thing that most folks ignore is deciding what you want from yor varnish. Without that musing about exotic ingredients is like musing about food in the center of desert when you need water.
    Violinmakers go for those exotic natural ingredients because they believe that's what Stradivari used Strad didn't have anything else to choose from) and they are paid for as close reproduction of original as possible even if it will not be durable (most Strad violins have almost no original finish, all is worn). OTOH, if you are making mandolins folks expect nice shiny durable surface that will not kill tone. This can be easily achieved with variety of modern finishes
    and durability will be much much better than any alchemistic concoction...
    I used and made spirit and even cooked oil varnishes from hand picked materials years ago and I use modern finishes as well
    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    I don't see the reason for all the hype about all natural ingredients unless you want to replicate something.
    I am really not trying to "hype" anything

    I was just asking if anyone had success with and would pass along the details on a natural oil varnish they had used "with success"
    Not why I am choosing to ask about it
    What you chose & your opinions, although being valid for you, isn't relevant to my original questions

    It's a good thing, we can see things differently, not have our motives questioned and not talk down too each other
    I kinda feel like I need to give a very detailed explanation about why I asked this question and give full disclosure on what I am going to do with it, because I just got pulled over by the varnish police and got a ticket...
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    First thing that most folks ignore is deciding what you want from yor varnish. Without that musing about exotic ingredients is like musing about food in the center of desert when you need water.
    Violinmakers go for those exotic natural ingredients because they believe that's what Stradivari used Strad didn't have anything else to choose from) and they are paid for as close reproduction of original as possible even if it will not be durable (most Strad violins have almost no original finish, all is worn). OTOH, if you are making mandolins folks expect nice shiny durable surface that will not kill tone. This can be easily achieved with variety of modern finishes
    and durability will be much much better than any alchemistic concoction...
    I used and made spirit and even cooked oil varnishes from hand picked materials years ago and I use modern finishes as well and I don't see the reason for all the hype about all natural ingredients unless you want to replicate something.
    Exactly. The secret of the ancient Italians was whatever they had on sale at the Cremona hardware store....

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    The ancient oil varnishes, when thoughtfully formulated, prepared, and applied, can produce finishes that are absolutely gorgeous.
    Perhaps the OP's interest in oil varnish is because he has noticed this.
    Oil varnish faded out of favor because it dries slowly, and because it takes a while to master the application techniques.

    To the OP, if you will start to dig around in the violin world, you will learn a lot more about oil varnish than you will on a mandolin forum. You will also find that there is considerable fable and myth surrounding the subject. But there are violin makers who are producing wonderful finishes today.

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by treidm View Post
    I am really not trying to "hype" anything

    I was just asking if anyone had success with and would pass along the details on a natural oil varnish they had used "with success"
    Sorry, I didn't mean YOU, but that general trend of talking about varnishes being the best thing under the sun.
    I'm not against varnishes (actually I used lacquer just few times in my life and it was not on musical instruments) I use tham all the time and even cooked my own... got few specialty varnish books etc...
    I also use commercial oil varnishes for my instruments and they work adequately.

    SO back to your question... I'd say it would be hard to tell which resins and plant extracts were not used (at least partially) succesfully by various folks.
    I used to (and still have the tendency) to collect raw materials wherever I find them walking through the woods, like nice burly stump or fallen tree with nice curl or large deposit of resin etc.
    I've used larch turpentine (called venetian), simple spruce or pine resins, I collected some resins from imported conifers (some of them were unknown species to me) growing at parks as well. I've experimented with cherry sap ... hard to name that all. I've also used artist store materials like dammar, shellacs, mastic, copals etc.
    I've used pure linseed oil from artist store and I even made my own "lead white" and cooked it into oil in old fashion.
    My best varnish was cooked in narrow corridor in basement on hot plate (I didn't realize the danger of being cut off by fire inside...) from copal and colophony (pine resin) and linseed oil (I think I used the one I boiled with lead) in roughly 1-1-1.5 ratio, I perhaps added a pinch of mastic. It levelled very nicely and brushed easily. I put two layers on piece of maple that I'm still (15 years later) using as cutting board when I'm cutting veneers or paper and the varnish holds extremely well on places where I didn't cut through. I would gladly use that varnish on mandolins now that I know how well it works and I still may have half of the bottle somewhere in the cabinet... I would probably not be able to replicate the result as there are many varieties of copal that work differently.
    The main disadvantage of the home brews is that you don't know how well it will dry and how it will behave few years down the road unless you do test samples and wait... That's why I'm using bought varnishes for instruments (I've used Hidersine oil varnish, Tru Oil, and recently simple phenolic oil varnish I bought few years ago). They all seem to work similarly. The big advantage of the homebrew was that you could clean the brush with soap water.... no need for solvents like for modern varnishes.

    Good luck with your research.
    Adrian

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    To the OP, if you will start to dig around in the violin world, you will learn a lot more about oil varnish than you will on a mandolin forum. You will also find that there is considerable fable and myth surrounding the subject. But there are violin makers who are producing wonderful finishes today.
    Been a member of maestronet since 2004 (Joined soon after joining here) and have hung around in the peghead many times
    Have learned a few things useful, as I have here

    I really only wanted to hear from those that feel they have had success and liked the natural varnish they had used or made, on mandolins
    If you haven't had success, don't like or don't know, that's cool too

    As far as fable and myths?
    Seems like a well proven practice that has worked for some time now
    Really don't know how to respond to that....

    Oh and to update:
    Amber or Seedlac and it's derivatives are natural also. Not just plant based, so bugs, minerals or plant based ok
    Last edited by treidm; Oct-21-2018 at 9:30pm.
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    The "fable and myth" surrounds the "magic" formulae and knowledge that the old Italian masters are thought to have possessed. Read Hill's book on Stradivari, Charles Reade's oft reprinted dissertation, etc. That sort of talk has been going on for at least 150 years. But modern studies seem to indicate that the Cremonese simply used linseed or walnut oil or perhaps another easily obtainable oil mixed with pine resin and/or sandarac; or related materials easily available in their area in a world without airplanes, railroads, and UPS delivery trucks. But lots of folks are still fighting over the legitimacy of the latest spectrographic studies, insisting that the Cremonese must have used some mystical magical combination of oils and resins with some secret ingredient that no longer exists . . . . Maybe they used a Latin incantation also.

    At any rate, oil varnish can be great stuff. If I were a mandolin builder, I would certainly consider it. But my main business is fretted instrument repair. Because of that, I generally stick to lacquer and shellac, since they are more consistent with the finishes that were originally used on most of the instruments that I work on. I have used oil varnish a few times on old Gibson mandolins and a Larson guitar, and will continue to use it when it seems sensible.

    I know that Steve Gilchrist favors spirit varnishes, and makes it himself from shellac flakes, sandarac, and copal. Gene Horner favored oil varnish, but bought his pre-mixed from a violin supply house. There are many modern violin makers who make their own varnish. I will add that one of our better modern classical guitar makers [I forget which one] is now making his own shellac from raw seed-lac because he wants to have control over the purity and consistency of his shellac.

    You probably can't go wrong with any of the higher grade bottled violin oil varnishes.

    For mandolins, I find Gibson's old "Cremona Brown" to be a very attractive finish. To make it from natural materials, you would have to find a bright but highly transparent yellow [perhaps saffron or gamboge] and a fairly deep brown. But it is likely that Gibson used aniline dyes rather than raw plant or mineral materials to obtain their colors in the old days.
    Last edited by rcc56; Oct-22-2018 at 12:52am.

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    The problem with using commercial high grade violin varnishes is that they almost never tell you the ingredients. They don’t want anyone duplicating the recipe.

    My one and only violin finishing experience was finishing a violin bought in the white from International Violin. I used Hammerl Standard oil varnish, which they advertise as “containing a combination of natural and synthetic resins in turpentine and linseed oil”. Over a golden ground, I used several coats of red brown varnish followed by two coats of clear. The varnishing schedule took over a month because of the long curing time. And when it was “finished” I didn’t like the look. When I was done rubbing out as many of the imperfections as I could, the result was too harshly shiny to my eyes. And I still hadn’t removed all the imperfections. On the advice of several on this forum, I tried overcoating with a couple of coats of Tru Oil. This was very successful, I love the look, shiny but not as harsh, clean and for all intents and purposes free of imperfections. Many here refer to Tru Oil as varnish, but it isn’t really. It consists of linseed oil, other oils, solvent, and dryers. I have found it to be very durable. I’ve played that violin quite a bit and it still looks new. It makes sense that Tru Oil would be durable, it’s made for gun stocks that get a lot of abuse being dragged through the woods and such. I understand that at least one well known mandolin maker uses a similar finish, that is oil varnish with a Tru Oil overcoat. I would not hesitate to say this would be a great finish for a mandolin.

    I have a very nice violin made by a well respected German studio with “Oil varnish”. I suspect probably a high end all natural oil varnish was used. It was made in 2003 and the varnish is still soft enough for me to leave a fingerprint if I press hard. This, aparrently, is a weak spot with the natural resins. Sometimes, they just never seem to fully cure. Some tout the soft varnishes as being so “flexible” that they allow the wood to vibrate more freely. This violin has great tone to be sure. But I’m not convinced Finish has anything to do with it. As long as the finish is thin enough, effect on tone is minimal. I would rather have something that protects the wood well.

    I think that, if the old Italian masters had synthetic resins available, they would have used them. The alkyd based varnishes work very well. In most cases synthetic resin varnishes represent an improvement over the natural products of old.
    Don

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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Full Disclosure:

    I used to make homemade wine from my own cling-stone peach tree. it was a very long process and I aged it for a year after bottled before drinking. All in all, close to a 2 year total process from peach to drinking

    I've spent many thousands on all of my hobbies and past times and untold hours too
    From candle making, fishing, wine making, soap making, guns, camping, music, instruments to...

    I would not be making an instrument for sale
    I attempt to do any Luthier work only for personal enjoyment, not as a business

    I must admit that I spend way too much money and way too many hours when I get an interest in something
    "And it doesn't need to make any logical sense either"
    But it's who I am...

    [Hopelessly addicted to my pwn personal desires]

    Reid
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by treidm View Post
    Full Disclosure:

    I used to make homemade wine from my own cling-stone peach tree. it was a very long process and I aged it for a year after bottled before drinking. All in all, close to a 2 year total process from peach to drinking

    I've spent many thousands on all of my hobbies and past times and untold hours too
    From candle making, fishing, wine making, soap making, guns, camping, music, instruments to...

    I would not be making an instrument for sale
    I attempt to do any Luthier work only for personal enjoyment, not as a business

    I must admit that I spend way too much money and way too many hours when I get an interest in something
    "And it doesn't need to make any logical sense either"
    But it's who I am...

    [Hopelessly addicted to my pwn personal desires]

    Reid
    and?

    I think the best thing would be to get some of the references given here as start reading?
    Bernie
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    and?

    I think the best thing would be to get some of the references given here as start reading?
    My last post was to just try and make light of it all, myself included...

    I assure you I pay attention to all posts that are related to my question
    I've been reading and studying for sometime now, here and at other forums and experimenting

    I just wanted opinions from those here, that felt, they were successful, and if they would share, and thanks to those that have stayed on point and tried to be helpful

    You evidently haven't been successful or don't want to share or just don't want to help, but thanks for the obvious, that I've already been doing
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    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by treidm View Post

    You evidently haven't been successful or don't want to share or just don't want to help, but thanks for the obvious, that I've already been doing
    There is no need to throw rocks. The reason you're not getting more info is that oil varnishes are rarely used on fretted instruments. That is why you have received several referrals to the violin world, where oil varnishes are still commonly used.

    The majority of modern mandolin makers use nitrocellulose lacquer, catalyzed lacquers, spirit varnish, or off the shelf catalyzed varnishes and conversion varnishes. Those who do use oil varnishes are more likely to purchase their varnish from violin suppliers rather than making their own.

    My suggestion to you is to get some wood, oils, and gums and start experimenting. Many recipes are available from the violin world.

    If you ever get interested in French polished shellac, you are welcome to pm me. I will be glad to share all that I know. But don't get frustrated when you find out that I buy shellac flakes and aniline dyes from a violin supplier, and grain alcohol from the liquor store.

    When I do use oil varnish, I buy it pre-bottled, and when necessary, add a touch of Japan drier from the hardware store. I have been known to thin it slightly with hardware store turpentine.

  33. #20

    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Long ago I used a local adaptation of the fulton varnish, using Pinyon pine sap (pinus edulis engelmanii) and linseed oil cooked to 275+ degrees outdoors, colored with crushed hematite from a prehistoric Shawnee warpaint mine on the east edge of the Ozarks near the source spring for the Meramec river. Flexible, slightly cloudy, wore too easily, mellowed the harsh of an irritating fiddle, needed lots of UV to cure, looked good with the local mountain mahogany (Cercocarpus Breviflorus) fittings, maybe made for a better story than 'I found this can at home despot'!
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by treidm View Post
    My last post was to just try and make light of it all, myself included...

    I assure you I pay attention to all posts that are related to my question
    I've been reading and studying for sometime now, here and at other forums and experimenting

    I just wanted opinions from those here, that felt, they were successful, and if they would share, and thanks to those that have stayed on point and tried to be helpful

    You evidently haven't been successful or don't want to share or just don't want to help, but thanks for the obvious, that I've already been doing

    You're welcome no charge for the advice.
    Bernie
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    If I wanted to make my own varnish for mandolins I would go for clear (uncolored) copal based varnish I described above above colored wood as is traditional. It makes the varnish resonably durable and easier to polish than soft rosin based varnishes. Yesterday I had a look at the samples from more than 20 years ago and the finish looks great on undamaged surfaces of the sticks, aged to nice amber color. I will look for the old bottle of the stuff, it must be somewhere as I don't throw away samples. Perhaps it is still liquid...
    Amber is good alternative, but is quite expensive and more problematic for cooking. Usually requires more oil to get some flexibility and thus longer drying time.
    Fro oil I would recommend swedish linseed oil or perhaps tung oil (if you can get pure) that has proven to be very well drying even in modern varnishes.
    For violins the long/low cooked rosin is all the rage among violoinmakers these days as it gives the color close to old italian varnishes. You probably read Roger Hargrave bass book where he describes his method.
    Adrian

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  38. #23
    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    If I wanted to make my own varnish for mandolins I would go for clear (uncolored) copal based varnish I described above above colored wood as is traditional. It makes the varnish resonably durable and easier to polish than soft rosin based varnishes. Yesterday I had a look at the samples from more than 20 years ago and the finish looks great on undamaged surfaces of the sticks, aged to nice amber color. I will look for the old bottle of the stuff, it must be somewhere as I don't throw away samples. Perhaps it is still liquid...
    Amber is good alternative, but is quite expensive and more problematic for cooking. Usually requires more oil to get some flexibility and thus longer drying time.
    Fro oil I would recommend swedish linseed oil or perhaps tung oil (if you can get pure) that has proven to be very well drying even in modern varnishes.
    For violins the long/low cooked rosin is all the rage among violoinmakers these days as it gives the color close to old italian varnishes. You probably read Roger Hargrave bass book where he describes his method.
    I've seen beautiful amber and liked the color of it. I think I might avoid tung oil. It can have cracking issues. Linseed of course always a good option.

    I really wanted to try and find a pre-made natural oil varnish, but they are expensive to try and test
    Hoped that some users that had, had much success and would share, could narrow things down a bit
    It may just be destined an expensive journey that will take longer than I wanted
    2011 Black A5 (#9) Mandolin
    1952 Gibson A-40N Mandolin
    1924 Gibson TB-1 Trapdoor Tenor Banjo
    1975 Gibson MK-35 Hybrid Braced Dreadnought Guitar
    1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS F-Style Mandolin
    2004 Martin D-16 GT Dreadnought Guitar
    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
    1997 Seagull S6 Dreadnought Guitar
    1970's Kay KB-52 5-String Banjo
    1960's Pirles 4-String Tenor Banjo

  39. #24
    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    You probably read Roger Hargrave bass book where he describes his method.
    If it's the one where it's about making a Bass, yes but been a while ago and skimmed some of it...
    I still have a copy though, may go back and re-read some
    2011 Black A5 (#9) Mandolin
    1952 Gibson A-40N Mandolin
    1924 Gibson TB-1 Trapdoor Tenor Banjo
    1975 Gibson MK-35 Hybrid Braced Dreadnought Guitar
    1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS F-Style Mandolin
    2004 Martin D-16 GT Dreadnought Guitar
    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
    1997 Seagull S6 Dreadnought Guitar
    1970's Kay KB-52 5-String Banjo
    1960's Pirles 4-String Tenor Banjo

  40. #25
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by treidm View Post
    I've seen beautiful amber and liked the color of it. I think I might avoid tung oil. It can have cracking issues. Linseed of course always a good option.

    I really wanted to try and find a pre-made natural oil varnish, but they are expensive to try and test
    Hoped that some users that had, had much success and would share, could narrow things down a bit
    It may just be destined an expensive journey that will take longer than I wanted
    From pre-made violin varnishes I used Hidersine oil varnish on several mandolins. There is no list of ingredients on the package so I never knew how it would behave. Later when I switched to hardware store oil varnish I found it works almost identically except for brush cleaning - the Hidersine could be cleaned with soapy water but the hardware store one needed thinner - perhaps it is cold mix of oils and resins (not thoroughly cooked together like on typical violin varnish) and the sticky resins stayed on the brush after the oils are washed away.
    I'm not sure about the tung oil cracking... there are as many myths floating around internet and this week I read that it tends to be soft-elatic and can wrinkle, and now that it cracks... Some of the best oil (spar) varnishes on the market (including Epifanes) use tung oil...
    Adrian

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