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Thread: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

  1. #26
    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Hidersine is mentioned over at the pegbox along with Hammerl and others
    usually spoken about favorably

    how has the hindersine you used, done long term?
    would you say it's more on the fragile side or durable side?
    color?
    2011 Black A5 (#9) Mandolin
    1952 Gibson A-40N Mandolin
    1924 Gibson TB-1 Trapdoor Tenor Banjo
    1975 Gibson MK-35 Hybrid Braced Dreadnought Guitar
    1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS F-Style Mandolin
    2004 Martin D-16 GT Dreadnought Guitar
    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
    1997 Seagull S6 Dreadnought Guitar
    1970's Kay KB-52 5-String Banjo
    1960's Pirles 4-String Tenor Banjo

  2. #27
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by treidm View Post
    Hidersine is mentioned over at the pegbox along with Hammerl and others
    usually spoken about favorably

    how has the hindersine you used, done long term?
    would you say it's more on the fragile side or durable side?
    color?
    That was clear varnish in small bottles (50ml or so I guess). I used it over shellac ground and french polished on top (straight shellac). I kept it thin (4-5 slightly diluted well brushed layers). I remember it took two days to dry enough for next layer and I used UV lamp to speed the final curing after last coat (HW store varnish is dry overnight even without UV)
    The finish feels soft for few weeks, it can be scuff sanded with W/D paper or pumice after few days but you won't be able to polish it as is to gloss. Certainly not hard or chippy finish.
    I've seen some of those mandolins after 10-15 years of use and the result is pretty much indisinguishable from those where I used Tru-oil or HW store varnishes (Clou or later Sniezka brands).
    The surface of these gets some patina - kind of tiny surface crazing of shellac that I like. I'm adding pic how it looks after some 15 years of use. It's not as apparent in person as in that picture with directed light.
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    Adrian

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Adrian, that effect you get is exactly the same effect I have on my “good” violin! I would speculate that it was varnished in the same way with the same stuff or something similar. I call the surface crazing “crackelure”. It’s a term I read somewhere along the line. Similar to an old master’s oil painting with a coat of clear varnish on top, like some do.

    Like I said before, this violin is 15 years old and the varnish still feels soft. I can leave a fingerprint if I press in. I kind of wish it were harder. You have to be careful. I’ve considered getting the French polish done over but then it would lose the crackelure.

    I forgot to point out earlier that there are two types of oil varnish- those that use volatile oils, and those that use drying oils. Volatile oils act as carriers for the resins. And evaporate. They have characteristics more like spirit varnish. The ones that use drying oils, in that case the oils become part of the finish left behind. That’s your tung oil, linseed oil, walnut oil, etc.

    If you look into Hammerl varnishes (aka JoHa), you will find they make different grades. I used JoHa “Standard”, which has both natural and synthetic resins in linseed oil and turpentine. But they also make higher grades. Their “1A” formula is all natural resins in the same carrier. They also make a volatile oil varnish which has no drying oil component and leaves only resins behind. If you go to the International Violin website they have an information sheet that is interesting (they are a JoHa dealer). They caution that the volatile formula is much more difficult to use and should be only for those with varnishing experience. The “standard” formula, by contrast, they say “almost anyone can do a good job”. In my case, the standard with Tru Oil overcoat worked superbly. Nice, hard, durable finish but thin and instrument sounds good. If you want all natural resins you could go to the “1A” formula and the working characteristics would be similar I’m sure. I don’t think IV carries the 1A though.

    You ask about color. Hammerl is available pre colored in many shades, from dark brown through red brown, red, yellow, and amber as well as clear. Finishing schedule is typically ground color (usually golden), sealer/filler (“sizing”), several coats of colored varnish, then two or three coats of clear varnish. I allowed a week of curing time before rubbing out each coat. You probably don’t need that much but I was being cautious. The Tru Oil overcoat that I used cured much more quickly. It was ready for final polish after just a couple of days.

    I would speculate that the Hidersine varnish has a large rosin component. Hidersine is a major manufacturer of violin rosin, and that just makes sense. It also seems to be a very soft varnish.

    With any of these commercial violin varnishes, you will have a very hard time determining what is in it. They won’t tell you. The formulas are proprietary. If you want to know exactly what’s in it, the only way to be sure is to cook it yourself.
    Don

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  6. #29
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Addendum: the only violin varnish I recall where the manufacturer actually tells you what’s in it is Behlen Violin Varnish. They state that it contains shellac, gum mastic, and gum sandarac. I note however that it is a spirit varnish, not oil. I have not used it, but I have read negative reviews that complain it stays too soft and never fully hardens. But that is a common complain with many violin varnishes.

    One thing I remember reading somewhere along the line is that one reason violins are French polished is that the shellac will form a hard surface while the varnish is still soft and that way the instruments can get out of the shop and sold more quickly.
    Don

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  8. #30
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    If the varnish takes fingerprint after 15 years it is way too soft IMO. The varnish on my mandolins is not hard like nitro but not rubbery as well. Actually the modern nitro I removed from F9 during refin was similarly soft - it didn't chip but I could plane it away with thumbplane in long strips that would not break, unlike old school nitro tht would chip in pieces.
    The mandolin in picture has been french polished over year or two before taking that picture when I touched up fingerprint-sized worn bare spot on neck. The patina just worked it's way back to the surface. It's result of breaking "fat over lean" rule where shellac is harder and underlaying oil varnish is softer. They contract at different rates and result is the tiny fractures of shellac. Use of softer resins in shellac mix would prevent this at least partially or delay/ slow down the formation of patina.
    When I compare the hardness of the Hidersine varnish film it is comparable to the copal varnish I cooked which was roughly 40% oil and 60% resins.
    BTW, I tried Hidersine spirit varnish as well (as base for french polish) and it was disaster as it would not dry at all and left sticky mess, luckily I was able to clean it and redo with straight shellac. Perhaps the bottle was old, but there was no date on the package to see...
    Adrian

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  10. #31
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    Addendum: the only violin varnish I recall where the manufacturer actually tells you what’s in it is Behlen Violin Varnish. They state that it contains shellac, gum mastic, and gum sandarac. I note however that it is a spirit varnish, not oil. I have not used it, but I have read negative reviews that complain it stays too soft and never fully hardens. But that is a common complain with many violin varnishes.

    One thing I remember reading somewhere along the line is that one reason violins are French polished is that the shellac will form a hard surface while the varnish is still soft and that way the instruments can get out of the shop and sold more quickly.
    That bad drying is common problem with all spirit varnishes (like I described above). Dissolved shellac can go bad in 6 months and I read that bleached clear shellac (or shellac that was chemically dewaxed) will go bad after some time even in dry form. That is likely from reaction with water that is in typical alcohol. I mix my own shellac using high percentage alcohol that is 99.7% (yes, 99.7, anhydrous)- bioethanol for stackfree fireplaces and have some shellac that has been dissolved two years ago and still dries perfectly. The Behlen's varnish is basically the well known "1704 formula" that can be found on internet. If properly done produces decent spirit varnish, but preferably always make fresh to avoid problems with drying.
    Actually no reputable violin maker today would french polish his violin in the way we do for mandolins. FP on violins os mostly done on spirit varnishes (that are more modern) or for copying old original instruments that were unlucy and got overpolished some time in their past. Secondly the reasoning behind the polishing to cover soft oil varnish is BS IMO (I read it her on MC years ago and know who posted it) The oil varnish will continue drying for years (like radioactive decay) but if it is not hard enough to carry bridge it will get damaged regardless of any shiny spitcoat on top. Typical oil varnishes are softer and would never polish out to such a shiny surface as shellac offers (modern makers tend to leave the surface quite raw and just use some rottenstone to even out the natural lustre of oil varnish) Most modern violin oil varnishes are dry within 8-12 hours for recoat and 4-5 days in UV chamber after last coat will dry them to level where they can safely leave the shop. There are some new modern UV LED lamps with spectrum range that can dry oil within an hour or so.
    Adrian

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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    I remembered I read the thing about French polish over uncured oil varnish “somewhere”, didn’t know it was here, and glad you called it out Adrian! I should know by now that just because something is on the Internet doesn’t mean it’s true!
    Don

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  13. #33
    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    HoGo

    Looks awesome!


    multidon

    "craquelure”
    That's a good one that I'll try and remember to add to vocabulary
    Last edited by treidm; Oct-24-2018 at 12:50pm.
    2011 Black A5 (#9) Mandolin
    1952 Gibson A-40N Mandolin
    1924 Gibson TB-1 Trapdoor Tenor Banjo
    1975 Gibson MK-35 Hybrid Braced Dreadnought Guitar
    1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS F-Style Mandolin
    2004 Martin D-16 GT Dreadnought Guitar
    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
    1997 Seagull S6 Dreadnought Guitar
    1970's Kay KB-52 5-String Banjo
    1960's Pirles 4-String Tenor Banjo

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    I misspelled it. It’s supposed to be “craquelure”. Sorry.

    Also forgot to mention that some violin makers attempt to produce craquelure on purpose. They do so just as Adrian says, by willfully disregarding fat over lean. A coat of spirit varnish over oil will apparently do the trick. I can site the source on this. A book on violin making by Henry Wake.
    Don

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  16. #35

    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Reid,have fun on your varnish journey! Really interesting subject.
    All I know about mandolin varnishes is that they can vary wildly in looks,durability,and consistency.

    The difference between my '93 Monroe model and 2004 Gibson Derrington finishes is night/day.
    The Monroe(Behlen?) looks new after 25 years of regular use;very durable. The Derrington looked old
    after a few months of regular playing.

    I think the main ingredient in the old classic varnish finishes is time.

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  18. #36
    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by V70416 View Post
    Reid,have fun on your varnish journey! Really interesting subject.
    All I know about mandolin varnishes is that they can vary wildly in looks,durability,and consistency.

    The difference between my '93 Monroe model and 2004 Gibson Derrington finishes is night/day.
    The Monroe(Behlen?) looks new after 25 years of regular use;very durable. The Derrington looked old
    after a few months of regular playing.

    I think the main ingredient in the old classic varnish finishes is time.
    Thanks, V70416

    Would luv to see some close-up pics of both sometime, if you could spare time to post.... Mainly the '93, since it's 25 years old with regular use on it....

    So much beauty in Mandolins! I truly believe they are the best looking instruments of all
    There are pretty violins and other types but when it's a good one, nothing tops a classy, sexy Mandolin....
    Reid
    2011 Black A5 (#9) Mandolin
    1952 Gibson A-40N Mandolin
    1924 Gibson TB-1 Trapdoor Tenor Banjo
    1975 Gibson MK-35 Hybrid Braced Dreadnought Guitar
    1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS F-Style Mandolin
    2004 Martin D-16 GT Dreadnought Guitar
    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
    1997 Seagull S6 Dreadnought Guitar
    1970's Kay KB-52 5-String Banjo
    1960's Pirles 4-String Tenor Banjo

  19. #37
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Just for fun, here is how the same mandolin I posted above looked brand new....
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    Adrian

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  21. #38
    Registered User treidm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Adrian

    That's a Beauty!, past and present!

    Feel free to tell me about this mandolin....

    Reid
    2011 Black A5 (#9) Mandolin
    1952 Gibson A-40N Mandolin
    1924 Gibson TB-1 Trapdoor Tenor Banjo
    1975 Gibson MK-35 Hybrid Braced Dreadnought Guitar
    1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS F-Style Mandolin
    2004 Martin D-16 GT Dreadnought Guitar
    2006 Martin DC-16RGTE AURA Dreadnought Guitar
    1997 Seagull S6 Dreadnought Guitar
    1970's Kay KB-52 5-String Banjo
    1960's Pirles 4-String Tenor Banjo

  22. #39
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    Default Re: Natural plant based resins in oil-based varnish

    Thanks to all of you. This has been a great read!
    mr.randy

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