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Thread: Measuring Neck relief

  1. #1
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Measuring Neck relief

    Maybe a 'newbie' style question,but,nevertheless it's something that i haven't needed to do before - so i'd rather ask & do it right - How do you measure the relief in a mandolin neck ?.

    I'm not sure on this point,but i think that i've read that you fret the G string at the 1st fret,& then again at the 12th fret,& then look at / measure the gap between the underside of the strings & the fret 6th or 7th fret. There should either be a very small gap, say .002" / .005" or no gap. Is this right ?.

    The reason that i ask is that the action on my Weber seems a tad high. It's either in need of a Truss Rod adjustment,or the bridge needs lowering. As the bridge bottomed out years back,it's a sandpaper job on the areas where the thumbwheels sit.

    Many thanks for any info.
    Ivan
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    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    The Weber website https://webermandolins.com/support/playability suggests:

    To check for proper neck relief, push down on the low string at the 1st and last frets simultaneously. There should be about 0.005” of space between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret.

  3. #3
    Registered User Robert Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    ivan,,what are you measuring @ the 121th fret? a good starting point would be .062
    you say a "tad" high,,check string height first,,then check relief. you will then know'
    what to adjust.
    MITCH

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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    None of my 4 F5s has more than just a hair of relief, the necks being almost straight. (I agree, guitars and banjos are different and sure need some relief.) The main advantage of a straight neck (to me) is a higher action over the fb extension for more pick room, as I'm not fond of scooping.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Thanks guys - I'm trying to determine if the truss rod needs adjusting - OR - the bridge lowering. Bruce Weber told me back when i bought my Weber, that he sends (used to) all the Weber mandolins out with flat fingerboards. So - if i measure the neck relief & find that the fingerboard is still 'flat' - then i know i need to lower the bridge. If - on the other hand,i find quite a gap between the underside of the G string & the frets,then it's a truss rod job.

    I simply don't know the correct way to measure the neck relief - NOT the action at the 12th fret.

    From One Chord Trick - ".....and last frets simultaneously. " And which frets would they be then ?. After the neck joins the body,then that section can't 'bend' - so it would have to be a single fret somewhere around the 12th fret ?. That's what i'm asking info. on. I've e-mailed Bruce Weber,but haven't received any reply yet - not surprising,he's a busy guy,
    Ivan
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Ivan,

    Your correct.. 1st fret and up around the neck joint. Then look at the gap around the 7th fret. I check E and G strings. Ideal relief depends on playing style, action at the nut and bridge and anything particular to your specific neck. Generally a few thousands relief is best.

    Here I go complicating things.....

    Make sure the 1st fret is not high, as this will throw off your measurement and you would never know. To do this, you can slide a short ruler (fret rocker) up to the first fret and see if it hits it. A slight bump would be normal if you have a lot of relief. If perfectly flat, you should not feel the first fret.
    Robert Fear
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    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Ivan,

    As you and Robert both described, the simple 1st Fret to 15th Fret string test of the neck is the way to start.

    Keeping it simple, mandolin necks should be almost straight, and looking at the fretted string spans in the area where the neck can most likely bend is the place to start. Mandolins do need a little relief -- but not much. The thickness of a couple pieces of paper at the 7th fret is plenty.

    Once you decide to adjust the truss rod and remove the cover, I suggest that you keep the cover off for a while to easily tweak while the neck settles and adjusts to the increased tension. Usually it only takes about 1/8 turn on mature instruments to make a tangible difference.

    By the way, if you can easily turn the nut and nothing changes, you might have a broken truss rod. It happens and can be fixed.

    Steve
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Robert / Steve - Many thanks indeed. I had an idea that it was something like that,but i'd read about it a long while back. So thanks for confirming my idea regarding 'how'.

    I did a quick check yesterday,fretting the G string at the 1st fret with a banjo capo,& then holding the same string down at the 12th fret - there was little or nothing in it & it looked pretty flat to me. I think that the bridge foot needs sanding down just a little where the thumbwheels sit. I've considered this other fact before,but i think that the tendonitis in my left hand might have something to do with the way the strings feel under my fingers - on some days !. I played the Weber yesterday just to give me a 'feel' of the way it plays & i had no problems.

    I contacted Bruce Weber for some info.when i first got the mandolin,& he told me that all Webers were sent out with 'flat' fingerboards, when he ran the show anyway. I know that necks can move for whatever reasons,& i simply wanted to check it.

    I had the truss rod adjusted (tightened) about 6 years ago & there was barely a 1/4 of a turn in it. I didn't notice any real improvement in the action / playability,but a few days later,i did notice that the volume level had increased by a serious amount.
    I posted that on here,& a Cafe member who hasn't posted for a long while,Nick Triesch,also an owner of a Weber "Fern", posted that the same thing had happened to him. A tad more down pressure on the bridge maybe ?.

    Once again Robert / Steve,my thanks,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    I received a reply From Bruce Weber this morning,& his info. was pretty much as Robert & Steve's. He sets the mandolin fingerboard to 'flat',& aims for an action of 1/16" at the 12th fret. My action is currently 1/16" above that - no problem,
    Thanks again - Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Ivan, I would be concerned about your bridge being bottomed out. Yes, your action is within specs, but you have lost all adjustability in one direction. What will you do if the top starts to bulge upwards with higher humidity conditions? No room to lower action anymore. Something else is at work here. Maybe time for a neck reset? I think sanding the bridge is at best a “band aid” for the problem, and should not need to be done on a properly designed bridge, which that one is.
    Don

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  13. #11
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    The bridge on my Collings mandola was bottomed out from new!

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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    I've always started dead flat unstrung. Strung up the relief has been fine.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Hi Don - The Weber is 10 years old & other than a minor truss rod adjustment about 6 years back,it's needed no attention.

    With regard to the bridge being 'bottomed out',putting that right is easy enough. If i needed to,i could sand the 2 areas where the thumbwheels rest (Post #1) enough so that the action is too low.Then i'd have enough movement to raise the bridge if neccessary. I could sand 1/16" off the bridge if required - then ''the only way is up''.

    Humidity ''conditions'' in the UK are almost non-existent. Humidity for the most part is pretty stable = we don't usually have any. This year was maybe the exception. We had 6 weeks of really hot sunshine,but even then,humidity didn't change too much,at least not in my home,it was mainly a very dry heat - but a good point nevertheless.

    From Ray - " The bridge on my Collings mandola was bottomed out from new ! " Ray - I'm pretty sure that my Weber was the same.
    Ivan

    PS - Going back to post #9 - i said that my action was 1/16" above Bruce Weber's recommended action - i meant 1/64"
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Hello again Ivan! I still say, if your action is too high, and the bridge is bottomed out, something else is going on. Maybe you can solve the problem by sanding down as you indicate, but that shouldn’t have to be done.

    I will also say, the usual set up procedure in a set up is to get the action as measured at the 12th fret correct first. Then worry about relief at the 7th fret after that. Neck relief can affect action a little but the relief on a mandolin is so little as to have negligible effect. If your problem is too high of an action, the cause if that is not your truss rod setting. It’s your bridge. If bridge adjustment doesn’t solve it, it could be a sinking top or incorrect neck angle. IMHO. YMMV.
    Don

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Hi Don - With respect,nothing else is going on. I like a high action,& as i mentioned above,i'm pretty sure that the bridge was bottomed out when i bought it. A neck can move over time,as we all know,so i had the truss rod adjusted around 6 years ago. There was literally a 1/4 of a turn it it,so probably next to no neck movement. The Weber hasn't been touched since & i've played it without any problems. If i do need to lower the action,than the only way is to sand it as i said.

    I did check it as mentioned above,& it's virtually 'flat'. If the neck angle had changed,that's something that you can't NOT notice,& it must have changed 6 years ago,as it's been the same for that length of time. The top is as it always was - perfectly 'domed' with no hint of flattening out as it would do if it was sinking,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Well, alright then Ivan. I agree that If you want the action lowered, your only choice at this point is to sand the bridge as you have suggested. Adjusting the truss rod will not do you any good. It really comes down to the bridge. Personally, I like a pretty low action. Both of my Webers are set at factory spec action, 1/16” at 12th fret, which I consider pretty low. Both bridges have lots of room to go in either direction if I wish. One is a Brekke Original (with the ebony wedges and side adjustment screws) and the other is a Brekke Traditional (like yours). Anyway, good luck and I hope you get it dialed in!
    Don

    2016 Weber Custom Bitterroot F
    2011 Weber Bitterroot A
    1974 Martin Style A

  20. #17
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Measuring Neck relief

    Hi Don - I think that my liking (need) for an action just a tiny bit higher than usual,came when i bought my Lebeda "Special''. The mandolin is physically larger than a standard F5,& i think that the top could have been carved a bit thinner. To get a decent volume from it,long before i discovered DR strings,i had to raise the action a bit to give me a bit more volume - i believe that Bill Monroe did the same thing for the same reason. The Weber action was already around that height anyway,as i mentioned,i think that the bridge was already bottomed out. Both the Weber & Lebeda string heights at the 12th fret are set at .078" (5/64"), that's 1/64 above Bruce Weber's recommended action. The one thing that makes the Lebeda easier to 'finger' with the left hand,is the wide fingerboard.

    I don't understand 'why',but just 'looking' at the Weber string height,it does look higher than my Lebeda,but they measure exactly the same,& i did that with a steel rule that measures in 64ths & a magnifying glass. My Ellis is a bit lower than that,maybe 1/16" 'spot on' - i don't really know. It plays well & it's 'as i got it' = ''if it ain't broke don't mend it''.

    If i do need to lower the action on the Weber,i know how to do it easily enough,but for now,i'll leave it,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
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