What finish?

[MandoMN18]

Any advice for what finish to go with for a mandolin with natural sides and back? I’m having a mandolin built that will look similar to this one except it will be quilted sides and back. My builder said there are many options he can do two of which are waterbased lacquer or waterbased varnish. I’ve never had a mando built before so I’m new to this. Thanks!!

[rcc56]

French polished shellac, possibly over a couple of coats of violin varnish, can be very nice, though a little delicate.

Lynn Dudenbostel swears by Pratt and Lambert "38" varnish, which he believes is quite similar to what Gibson used in the early '20's.

And then, there is always good old nitrocellulose lacquer.

Depending on what you settle on, you might want to add just a tiny bit of tint to give the finish a little more warmth and bring out the figure in the wood.

[Br1ck]

That picture looks like amber to me. I just finished my mandolin with the back and sides amber, and the top clear. Used Royal Lac which is a more durable shellac. Time will tell.

Pic went from vertical to horizontal. Anyone know why?

[multidon]

In my opinion you have to think about what is left behind after the finish cured. What is that on your instrument anyway? There is lots of talk in our community about the evils of “plastic”. Lots of things are “plastic”. In a manner of speaking, nitrocellulose lacquer is a plastic, as are the natural resins found in violin varnishes. To some extent the binders in our finishes have to have plastic characteristics to act the way we want them to act.

It’s interesting that your maker gave you numerous options. Most makers narrow down onto a relatively few finishes or even only one or two they like the best. Have you asked him about the pros and cons of each type of finish, and what he would recommend if he were making the instrument for himself?

The qualifier “water based”, “oil based”, or “solvent based” only identifies the carrier, not the binder. The binder is what’s left behind. Most “water based lacquer” is acrylic. Most “water based varnish” is polyurethane. Most “oil based varnish” is alkyd, or natural plant based resins in some more expensive violin varnishes. Nitrocellulose lacquer is solvent based, and it’s binder is nitrocellulose. It is worth noting that wood is composed largely of cellulose, so in a way it is more chemically related to wood than the others. Shellac is solvent based and a product that comes from a beetle. French polish is not a finish but a process of applying shellac by hand.

You will probably get the best end result if you go with whatever your builder feels most comfortable using and has the most experience with. Nitro is a common choice, but it is prone to cracking, weather checking, and is easily scratched and dinged. Polyurethane and acrylic can be more durable but some argue the “plastic” inhibits the sound. Truthfully, the key really is that any finish must be kept as thin as possible. If the finish is thin enough, it won’t have any negative impact on sound no matter what it is.

My Weber’s are nitro, and I think they’re fine. But if I were having a custom instrument built I would be tempted to go with oil based varnish. I love the look, and the way it ages. Not really prone to weather checking like nitro because it flexes more. It does get scratched and nicked as it ages but it just looks like honest wear. The Pratt and Lambert 38 is oil based alkyd, and a good one. Oil varnish takes much longer to cure, and is more labor intensive to apply, so most makers upcharge for using it. But it’s worth it in my opinion.

[MandoMN18]

Here’s a better picture of what I would like. Do you think this has any amber tinting to it or do you think this is clear?

[rcc56]

It looks like an untinted finish to me.

[multidon]

Looks very clear. My guess, if that’s the look you want, waterbased polyurethane varnish is what you want. Or waterbased acrylic lacquer. Most oil based finishes add an ambering effect, even without tinting it.

Years ago, when water based finishes first started to catch on in instrument making, some complained that the formulas available at that time added an unwanted bluish tint. I believe the formulas have changed and that is no longer a problem.

[MandoMN18]

Thank you everyone! This is a tough decision. It sounds like I should do lacquer if I want the natural back and sides. It seems like there are a lot of opinions on the topic of varnish vs lacquer. Part of me is wondering if I should choose a color instead of the natural back and sides so I can have it varnished instead. But I’ve also heard that if the lacquer is applied thin enough it won’t make a difference.

[Rob Roy]

It depends on what you like. My preference would be for a more honey-amber tint as it's a warmer color that more resembles an aged maple finish. If you're considering resale value at all, clear natural finishes are definitely in the minority as most people are seeking sunburst shading or a darker color. Whatever you choose, be aware that waterborne finishes do not yellow with age to the extent solvent-based varnishes and lacquers do. What it looks like new is what it will look like 20 years down the road (minus wear and tear)

[MandoMN18]

The resale piece does give me some hesitation... although I hope to have this forever. I wanted something different then sunburst but I’m getting mixed reviews on this color combo

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'd leave the choice of finish to the experience of your builder. If he's good enough to be trusted with building you a mandolin,then accepting his choice of finish is something that wouldn't bother me,
Ivan

[yankees1]

If you are going to keep it forever ( most of us usually think that, like marriage ! ) that is one thing but if you may sell it someday that is another and your market pool will be reduced ! Looks half finished to me !

[multidon]

Personally I like the clear look on your example and it may work if the map,e has spectacular figure. The clear really allows the wood figure to speak for itself.

I don’t think you should ever consider resale when choosing an instrument. You should choose what you like, it will hopefully be yours for a long time. When resale comes along, it will float someone’s boat. That said, a popular alternative to the ubiquitous sunburst these days is “Honey Tortoise”. There is a market for that color combo and you would need to color the maple with amber toner to achieve that. Honey tortoise would likely be an easier sale but, again, if you like clear, it’s not a wrong choice.

Thinking about clear as a color makes me think of the comic strip “Funky Winkerbean”. If you’re a fan of that strip, you know the school colors for the “Scapegoats” are mauve and clear. Why? “Beacause all the other colors were already taken”.

[Br1ck]

I arrived at my color choice by first deciding that I didn't want a traditional sunburst, then deciding I didn't want to try a honey burst or some such as my first foray into mandolin finish. While I played my mandolin in the white, and sent pics to friends, over half the people liked the uncolored top.

I got some maple boards, dyed and clear coated them, and showed them around. I had plain amber, amber tinted with a hint of red, a plain brown and a dark brown. It was almost unanimous for the plain Amber, which is how I arrived at the mandolin pictured above. Had I not gotten feedback, I would have gone two tone with a light amber top and a darker Amber back and sides.

Really happy with my choice.

[MandoMN18]

I arrived at my color choice by first deciding that I didn't want a traditional sunburst, then deciding I didn't want to try a honey burst or some such as my first foray into mandolin finish. While I played my mandolin in the white, and sent pics to friends, over half the people liked the uncolored top.

I got some maple boards, dyed and clear coated them, and showed them around. I had plain amber, amber tinted with a hint of red, a plain brown and a dark brown. It was almost unanimous for the plain Amber, which is how I arrived at the mandolin pictured above. Had I not gotten feedback, I would have gone two tone with a light amber top and a darker Amber back and sides.

Really happy with my choice.

It is a beautiful instrument!! I’m glad I’m not the only one that struggled. I’ve asked friends too. I feel like I just can’t quite find what I’m looking for. This is stressful! It seems like the more I look the more I see traditional sunbursts.

[rcc56]

You'll just have to go with your own instincts. Bear in mind that your luthier might be more comfortable with one finish than he is with another. The only thing that I will add is that a very slight tint will tend to accentuate the figure of the maple more than a finish that has no color at all.

[Br1ck]

Well for me it came down to paint the top black so you won't notice all the flaws, or just clear coat the top and revel in your marvelous abilities to salvage screwups. Ended up reveling in the screwups. Then it was just a matter of side and back color. At some point you just have to decide. I've seen some beautiful non traditional bursts.

I was intrigued by a product called Royal Lac that LMI sells. All the attributes of shellac but more durable supposedly. When I listened to a Tom Ellis interview and he used the same buzzwords describing the new finish for Pavas, I thought this has to be the stuff. Anyway it has the look of shellac, was easy to wipe on the sealer and a few top coats, and it took to french polishing, which I'd not done before. Time will tell on durability.

[multidon]

According to its MSDS, Royal Lac consists of shellac, solvents (ethanol, propanol, methanol), and proprietary “trade secret” resin. It is obviously that last component, whatever it is, that gives it its durability edge over straight shellac. FWIW, the trade secret resin is listed as potentially hazardous, but so are all the other ingredients other than the shellac.