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Thread: No to cookie cutter mandolins

  1. #1
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    Default No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Like most builders, I've always been chasing that special sound and playability with all of my mandolins. But the look needs to be just right too to get people to want one. I've tried over the years (almost 20) to make each one an individual and yet try always for "that sound". By maintaining a Loar style, but using materials that are not always traditional, I am trying to build each a one-of-a-kind instrument... Am I going in the wrong direction? Back plates and necks have usually been figured maple. for the most part, but I've used other woods besides spruce for the top plates. Most have been spruce, but I've also tried fir and cedar with good success. For peg heads, ebony is used the most, but rosewood, walnut, and maple have been used too. For the points, everything is used from bone, to different woods, to ivoride and ABS plastics to get the look I want. Binding is the same way. Other then the top plates, do other builders feel these slight differences make any difference in the saleability of my mandolins? Is being the same more important, or not so much...…...
    kterry

  2. #2
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I vote for variety - in tonewoods, style, color, etc. I'm personally not swayed by a Loar F5 sunburst replica. I'm a sucker for a natural finish, maple binding (the standard white cellulose or plastic does nothing for me), minimal to zero inlay, topped off with a western red cedar or redwood soundboard.

  3. #3
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    From makers perspective I'd go for consistency in tone and workmanship first so too many options would not allow me to get thorough understanding how various carving, archings etc of singe pair od species work together also binding with wood requires different set of skills than use of plastics.
    Adrian

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  5. #4

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about precisely this question. In one respect, working with as many different materials and designs as possible will give you a broader understanding of mandolin construction—over time—but with a more complex and potentially longer learning curve. By contrast, some other builders try to eliminate as many variables as possible, working with only one or two wood types having as consistent tonal properties as possible, so that they can more readily identify the decisions they make that affect tone. In that respect the approach allows them to go deeper sooner, whereas the many-variable approach goes broader. There seem to be real trade-offs between the two approaches. No names mentioned, but I know one California builder who uses no molds, incorporates a wide variety of wood, and every instrument is different than the one before. Almost like free-climbing. Another great California builder uses only a few varieties wood with nearly the exact same weight and stiffness so he can replicate his best results and dial in fine-level improvements. Both produce terrific instruments and have dedicated followings.

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  7. #5
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    The problem is that people are fond of traditions. I don't see any musical instrument genre where designs change all that much all that fast.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  9. #6

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I think there are a lot of underutilized alternative woods that I am personally open to having on instruments, for instance I have a dogwood topped Appalachian dulcimer. There is something to be said with keeping certain parameters like shape within conventional bounds though, for things like players being able to find suitable cases, upgraded hardware, and other accessories.

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    If folks want to buy your non traditional looking mandolins that is wonderful and fulfilling but you have to meet your expenses.

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

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  11. #8

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Alternative woods are a very hard sell, no matter how good the instrument may be. I love using different woods and most can make a very fine instrument, but try to sell it and it's a whole 'nother story. Most folks want something familiar. Look at Rigel mandolins, they couldn't stay afloat because they didn't look traditional, even using familiar woods. Some of those are the best feeling, sounding and playing mandolins I've ever had my hands on. A lot of people as least claim to like different things, but most aren't willing to pay for "different."

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  13. #9
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I've always wondered how many "alternative tonewoods" actually exist -- and are practical. Of course, we're all aware of multiple varieties of spruce, maple, mahogany, and rosewood in fairly common use for instrument building. But how many alternatives exist, really?

    Tonewoods have to meet a number of fairly stringent criteria, and not all woods have the right properties. Among these are:

    1) Tight and straight grain (esp. for the topwood)
    2) Light (ditto)
    3) Hard (esp. for the body wood)
    4) Glues up well (does not reject adhesives -- some woods are too oily)
    5) Available (not an endangered species)
    6) Sufficiently sized pieces
    7) Sounds good...

    In practice, most wood varieties don't tend to meet more than a few of these criteria. Some trees are too small. Some are too rare. Some have knots or wavy grain. Some are too soft. Some have too much oil or sap. And so on.

    I suspect the list of practical alternatives is surprisingly small. But I'd love to see a list!

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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I'm currently playing a JBovier with zebrawood back and sides. It sounds great and is quite beautiful! Agreed that many want spruce and maple only, and it might be hard to sell alternatives, especially if one cannot play the instrument before sale.

  15. #11
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    For any business, the best compliment is when strangers give you money for your product. If your approach doesn't lead to a successful monetary stream then you have new choices to make. No business or artistic endeavor is guaranteed to be a financial success, no matter how admirable or lofty the motives.

    But Van Gogh only sold one painting in his lifetime, so maybe thats a route to take as well.

    just sayin.........
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    The reason that the traditional bluegrass style mandolin is popular and sell-able today is Bill Monroe. He became famous, and he brought that style of mandolin up with him. If it had been someone else becoming famous with another style mandolin, we'd probably be discussing the woods used with that style of mandolin today here in this thread.

    Similarly, if today's top-line artists play a different style of mandolin, those will be attracting attention. And we see that happening a bit today with Dawg, Sierra and a few other artists.

    We aren't necessarily talking about a difference in wood quality. We're talking about a difference in what people see top artists playing. "If they are making such wonderful sounds with [the woods used in] their mandolins, that's what I want too." To a large extent, artist popularity sells the instruments.
    -- Don

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  18. #13
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Disclaimer, I have never built a mandolin. However, I have decades of experience turning wood and carving. Each species of wood has different characteristics and each piece of wood within a species is different with its own personality. Getting the repeatability required for production requires minimizing the number of variables which, to me, means sticking with a few choices of wood that you understand well.

  19. #14
    Registered User Dave Fultz's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    What about mandolin cookie cutters?

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  21. #15
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I like the road less traveled approach, even though I own a trad burst-finished mandolin. But whenever I see a new maker make the same old thing, I always think: Just what the world needed, another burst F5 copy. But, that’s what sells.
    ...

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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
    What about mandolin cookie cutters?

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    I prefer the cast bronze ones, not the pressed tin ones.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I can't possibly count the times I've seen someone on-line say they are tired of sunburst F5s, say they want to see something different, ponder why builders don't build with this wood or that, or use unique designs, etc. etc., but I surely can count the number of times someone has said "Here's $XXXX. Build me something completely different." (Hint, it is less than the number of thumbs on one hand.)

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  26. #18
    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    It happens.

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    But the traits of the components have to come together so that the tone, playability, and responsiveness of the instrument exceed both player prejudices and expectations.

    Steve

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  28. #19

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    For the uninitiated accross the pond, can someone explain what a ' cookie cutter mandolin ' is ?

    Dave H
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  29. #20
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hanson View Post
    For the uninitiated accross the pond, can someone explain what a ' cookie cutter mandolin ' is ?

    Dave H
    Sure.
    A cookie cutter is a metal form that is used for cutting identically shaped cookies from rolled dough.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cookie-cutter?s=ts
    cookie cutter
    noun

    a device, usually of metal, for cutting shaped forms, as circles or stars, for cookies from dough that has been rolled flat.
    Used as an adjective, it means identical or undifferentiable.
    cookie-cutter
    [koo k-ee-kuht-er]
    adjective

    having the same configuration or look as many others of a given kind; identical: rows of cookie-cutter houses.

    lacking individuality; stereotyped or formulaic: a novel filled with cookie-cutter characters.
    So a cookie cutter mandolin would be one that looks, and is built like, the stereotypical sunburst Gibson F5, made with the standard woods - spruce, maple, and ebony.

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  31. #21
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Balsa has been used.

  32. #22

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    2 countries separated by a common language eh !

    Dave H
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  34. #23
    Registered User Stephen Cagle's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I will admit most folks DO NOT vary from tradition much. Me also included. If I were a builder I most likely would not vary from the standard F5 shape. I've just always felt this way and for whatever reason I don't see that changing. If I were a builder I would build the standard F5 but do some different finishes. As most know I'm a huge fan of chocolate brown finishes and not really crazy about sunburst. Let me correct myself, if the sunburst isn't drastic I'm certainly good with that but the really high yellow and dark almost black edges no way! I would never buy a mandolin that had this type finish. I'll give an example. In the classifieds right now if it's not sold is a newly built "Greene" F5 that I personally think the builder is on the right track! This would be what I would consider "The Perfect mandolin". If I had 3500 it would absolutely be mine. A very subtle sunburst but standard everywhere else.
    Just my 2 cents worth.

  35. #24
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    If your market will be the bluegrass style I would say you need to be able to build something that delivers that sound and that's most likely an arch top/back, elevated fingerboard, ff holed mandolin in (typically) an A of F shape. Once you can deliver that sound, you can think about tweaking the design and shape to fill your desire to create new.

    Colors and inlay are just kind of blingy things to my minds eye and really aren't venturing into too much new territory. Folks may like a different color now and again but the finish is more important than the color (at least tonally).

    I think Marty Jacobson and Brian Dean are doing non-traditional very well. Many of the others that don't have strict F5 shapes still have those F5 elements at heart.

    I have a cant top A style, a two pointer, and a couple of old bowl backs (only one of those plays). I had a Brian Dean made L&H Style A replica that was almost a cylinder back as well. I love non traditional looking instruments but I'm a small minority of a small minority of stringed instrument (mandolin) enthusiast!

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

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  37. #25
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    This is quite an interesting discussion for those of us that think that an Italian style bowl back mandolin is "traditional"!

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    The reason that the traditional bluegrass style mandolin is popular and sell-able today is Bill Monroe. He became famous, and he brought that style of mandolin up with him. If it had been someone else becoming famous with another style mandolin, we'd probably be discussing the woods used with that style of mandolin today here in this thread.
    I believe this too. IF BM had used a Lyon and Healy, the mandolin world would be making copies of them instead of copying Gibson.

    If another style of music had become ascendant with a mandolinist at the center, we'd be using whatever they played.


    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_al View Post

    So a cookie cutter mandolin would be one that looks, and is built like, the stereotypical sunburst Gibson F5, made with the standard woods - spruce, maple, and ebony.
    Pretty much!

    Anyway, thanks for the interesting read about mandolin design.

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