Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 45 of 45

Thread: No to cookie cutter mandolins

  1. #26

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Sorensen mandolins are the definitive thinking outside the box mandolins. They are the perfect example of pushing the design envelope without going too far. Exquisite is the word that comes to mind.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  2. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Edmonds, WA
    Posts
    446

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    To put another spin on this, think of your brand... If you're going to be a serious builder, part of what makes your instruments special is that when people talk about your instruments they can find a commonality that they feel is important. For example, when I talk about a Martin dreadnaught guitar most guitarists relate to the strong bottom-end and projection you can get from a Martin. With a Taylor it's the fit and finish of the instrument, and the generally "clean" sound you get. A Fender Strat is all about the sound and the playability of the neck. Hopefully you get my drift.

    If you make a dozen different mandolins and each one uses different tonewoods, construction techniques, bindings and shapes, you don't have a brand. You have a bunch of one-offs that may or may not sound good or play well. Who knows? I can't imagine a serious player shelling out $5,000-10,000 for something completely different than anything you have made or they have played before. But, hey, that's just me. I don't drop that kind of money on anything without doing a lot of research and comparison shopping...

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rob Meldrum For This Useful Post:


  4. #28
    Still Picking and Sawing Jack Roberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    sigmaX>=hbar/2sigmaP
    Posts
    1,701

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mendel View Post
    Alternative woods are a very hard sell, no matter how good the instrument may be. I love using different woods and most can make a very fine instrument, but try to sell it and it's a whole 'nother story. Most folks want something familiar. Look at Rigel mandolins, they couldn't stay afloat because they didn't look traditional, even using familiar woods. Some of those are the best feeling, sounding and playing mandolins I've ever had my hands on. A lot of people as least claim to like different things, but most aren't willing to pay for "different."
    I've bought "Alternative woods" both from Joe and another builder. I doubt I would have any trouble selling Joe's instrument, although I don't think I ever would, but I have had bad news about the other instrument. I took it to Gryphon and got a very depressing evaluation. Although it is a sonically excellent instrument, it is not not a good candidate for the used market.

    Oh well, I like "different."
    Ha, ha! keep time: how sour sweet music is,
    When time is broke and no proportion kept!
    --William Shakespeare

  5. The following members say thank you to Jack Roberts for this post:


  6. #29
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Boulder, CO & Chesterfield, MO
    Posts
    2,562

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Roberts View Post
    I've bought "Alternative woods" both from Joe and another builder. I doubt I would have any trouble selling Joe's instrument, although I don't think I ever would, but I have had bad news about the other instrument. I took it to Gryphon and got a very depressing evaluation. Although it is a sonically excellent instrument, it is not not a good candidate for the used market.

    Oh well, I like "different."
    I think there is a buyer out there for every good sounding mandolin. It is just a matter of finding them. I'd list it on the classifieds here and see if you get any interest.

  7. #30
    Out of tune HappyPickin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    NE 10EC
    Posts
    76

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    The thing that caught my eye with my mandolin was that it is unique. Then it caught my ear and my house didn't get new windows this year.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20181019_195102.jpg 
Views:	113 
Size:	2.01 MB 
ID:	171998
    Out of tune and out of time.

  8. #31
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PTC GA
    Posts
    1,348

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    There's a reason that approximately 95% of music stores have an average of 0 - 2 mandolins hanging on the wall, and those mandolins are priced below $400 and sport "traditional" designs. It is because not many people open their wallet and purchase mandolins, much less higher quality mandolins. "Traditional" includes the name on the headstock, which is brand. The fewest purchasers seem to be the ones primarily interested in quality sound. Brand and bling reign. I think just about all purchasers are looking for something that will maximize resale value, even if they intend to keep the instrument forever, which means brand and bling. I, too, like to build each one as a unique instrument with primary focus on the sound. As mentioned above, that makes them one-off instruments. I don't care whether they sell or not, so it's not a big deal. If the sound is good, they usually sell when they find that rare person who is looking for good sound in a unique instrument. If I were trying to make a living from this or even cover all my costs, I would change my focus.
    Tom

    "Feel the wood."
    Luthier Page: Facebook

  9. The following members say thank you to Tom Haywood for this post:


  10. #32
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Augusta, Maine, USA
    Posts
    1,810

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mendel View Post
    Alternative woods are a very hard sell, no matter how good the instrument may be. I love using different woods and most can make a very fine instrument, but try to sell it and it's a whole 'nother story. Most folks want something familiar. Look at Rigel mandolins, they couldn't stay afloat because they didn't look traditional, even using familiar woods. Some of those are the best feeling, sounding and playing mandolins I've ever had my hands on. A lot of people as least claim to like different things, but most aren't willing to pay for "different."
    That's interesting. I'm a buyer, not a builder. I do like the traditional A shape, but wood? I love playing instruments made from all kinds. Cedar, walnut, rosewood, cherry - they all have looks and personality.

    I'm surprised more buyers don't feel the same way. Too bad! Maybe the thing to do is make every seventh or eighth mando a departure from Normsville, just to amuse yourself.

  11. #33
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    3,107

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I know of plenty of builders that have spent incredible amounts of time, labor and money building instruments that did not attract a viable or appreciative audience. There's a reason why the top mandolin builders, be they solo entrepreneurs or larger enterprises, are successful. Gilchrist, Gibson, Ellis, Collings and Northfield come to mind...

    To me the main factors in the purchase of a new mandolin are neck shape, playability, sound and, of course, fit and finish... after that it's all window dressing.

  12. #34
    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    2,461

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I guess it depends on how you want to get from A to Z --

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Boring.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	301.4 KB 
ID:	172012 OR Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Koeningsegg.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	47.9 KB 
ID:	172013

    Both will get you there. And nobody ever actually DIED of boredom.

    Steve
    Steve Sorensen
    Sorensen Mandolin & Guitar Co.
    www.sorensenstrings.com

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Steve Sorensen For This Useful Post:


  14. #35
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,013

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Unless a maker is a true amateur - meaning doing it for the love of it at a high level, not meaning "mediocre" or "unprofessional" as the term often implies now - they need to be compensated for the time, effort, and cost of making an instrument.

    I used to work at a music wholesale/dealer/importer and dealt with small shop makers of many instruments, including mandolin makers, and to actually make enough money to sustain a small business requires a lucky combination of many factors.

    One of which is what actual instrument do you make and how many of them will you sell. Simple math, in a way - you have to sell enough instruments and have to be able to produce enough too.

    I can see why mandolin makers have a tight-rope act as mandolin is not as popular and guitar and 'ukulele, can be somewhat expensive in comparison, and there is a market-driven taste for a certain type of mandolin.

    Innovation would be tricky, as many of the posts from both makers and buyers have shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Haywood View Post
    The fewest purchasers seem to be the ones primarily interested in quality sound. Brand and bling reign. I think just about all purchasers are looking for something that will maximize resale value, even if they intend to keep the instrument forever, which means brand and bling. I, too, like to build each one as a unique instrument with primary focus on the sound. As mentioned above, that makes them one-off instruments. I don't care whether they sell or not, so it's not a big deal. If the sound is good, they usually sell when they find that rare person who is looking for good sound in a unique instrument. If I were trying to make a living from this or even cover all my costs, I would change my focus.
    Tom has an interesting take on this, as a maker, and that is a primary interest in the sound.

    But what "sound"? A Loar-esque F model set up for Bluegrass? A Lyon and Healy? An A model w/ oval hole for an old-time musician?
    A bowlback for me? One of those Brazilian bandolim type instruments?

    To me the most important features in a mandolin would be the "sound" and the playability. Looks are completely secondary.

    However, agreeing on what sound we want is another issue. And although it is unlikely, there still could be a new, widely adopted mandolin design with another new sound to add to the list.


  15. The following members say thank you to DavidKOS for this post:


  16. #36

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    You would think that young people would be looking for new and different, but for decades now have been buying strat, Tele, and Les Paul shaped guitars with the odd unsuccessful Firebird thrown into the mix. On the acoustic side dreads, 000s, with the radical new idea being cut aways. Is it any wonder that an instrument whose proponents are largely playing blue grass or old timey, possibly Americana, would want instruments steeped in tradition?

    Heck, I remember what a leap buying my redwood topped Silverangel was, for someone buying their first good mandolin. Lucky for me I didn't know any better. But making a mandolin with something other than the standard shape sound holes limits one's market.
    You have to be a brilliant designer like the previously mentioned Mr.Sorenson to pull it off, and really, how deviant are his really?
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  17. The following members say thank you to Br1ck for this post:


  18. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Jackson, CA
    Posts
    208

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Radical instrument designs are most often merely expressions of particular egos. If mandolin was the "ax" of Rock and Rollers, then alternative and radical designs would be more commonly sought. Bluegrass, Old Time and Americana all have a built-in predilection for maintaining and respecting tradition. Perhaps that could be germane? Blessings

  19. The following members say thank you to RustyMadd for this post:


  20. #38

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyMadd View Post
    Radical instrument designs are most often merely expressions of particular egos. If mandolin was the "ax" of Rock and Rollers, then alternative and radical designs would be more commonly sought. Bluegrass, Old Time and Americana all have a built-in predilection for maintaining and respecting tradition. Perhaps that could be germane? Blessings
    But look, the Rock and Rollers are playing strat and tele style guitars, or Les Paul, 335 or Gretch variants or other retro styles. How many Steinberger like designs survive? Next to none. There have been quite a few really innovative designs. No one plays them.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  21. The following members say thank you to Br1ck for this post:


  22. #39
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Blue Zone, California
    Posts
    1,866
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    ... No one plays them.
    Again, if today's top-line artists play a different style of mandolin, those will be attracting attention.

    I know of at least one well known builder which is going out of its way to make sure top performers, and even up-and-coming performers, are playing its instruments on stage. One such builder is actually well known to this thread. That philosophy, along with a remarkably good design, is paying off nicely.

    If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
    2016 MK LFSTB
    1975 Suzuki taterbug (plus many other noisemakers)
    [About how I tune my mandolins]
    [Our recent arrival]

  23. The following members say thank you to dhergert for this post:


  24. #40
    Registered User MandoMN18's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    73

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I’m considering having a mando built similar to this... maroon face, natural back and sides, tortoise binding. I’ve been told on the Cafe that it’s resale value won’t be as good with the natural finish since it is different than the normal sunburst. Although I hope to never want to sell it, the fact that others seem to not love that combo does give me hesitation to go forward with it as I also look at it as an investment. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CB1724A3-0013-48BC-B7D0-3418421DF90C.png 
Views:	54 
Size:	9.02 MB 
ID:	172017..Click image for larger version. 

Name:	510911F2-FA2D-450E-851A-4B04DBB02114.jpeg 
Views:	45 
Size:	350.9 KB 
ID:	172016. Pictures for examples
    Hinde MF #40

  25. The following members say thank you to MandoMN18 for this post:


  26. #41
    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,318

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Two of my favorite builders are Ken Ratcliff and Steve Sorensen. They build what they want and I am a huge fan of their work! They are true artists in my opinion! Around this area, most people want traditional.

  27. The following members say thank you to Skip Kelley for this post:

    rowka 

  28. #42
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,013

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyMadd View Post
    Radical instrument designs are most often merely expressions of particular egos. If mandolin was the "ax" of Rock and Rollers, then alternative and radical designs would be more commonly sought. Bluegrass, Old Time and Americana all have a built-in predilection for maintaining and respecting tradition. Perhaps that could be germane? Blessings
    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    But look, the Rock and Rollers are playing strat and tele style guitars, or Les Paul, 335 or Gretch variants or other retro styles. How many Steinberger like designs survive? Next to none. There have been quite a few really innovative designs. No one plays them.
    Bass players have been more prone to innovative designs than guitarists since the 70's.

    Sure, there were creative designs like the Steinbergers and Parkers.

    The only "innovative" guitars that have had a following of any size since were the Superstrats of the 80's and PRS, but mostly Teles, Strats, Les Pauls, SG's, 335's, a couple of Gretsch's, and since grunge, the odd Fenders like Jazzmasters and such have still been the basic tools for pro electric guitarists. Rather than go for innovative designs, there has even been a trend to make copies of mediocre instruments of the past! Look at the copies of Harmonies, Silvertones, Danelectros, Supros and other less than stellar instruments of the past that are made now.

    So there is no guarantee that if mandolin was popular in other more adventurous genres that it would have any different affect on mandolin design and popularity.

  29. #43
    My Florida is scooped pheffernan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    3,856

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoMN18 View Post
    I’m considering having a mando built similar to this... maroon face, natural back and sides, tortoise binding. I’ve been told on the Cafe that it’s resale value won’t be as good with the natural finish since it is different than the normal sunburst. Although I hope to never want to sell it, the fact that others seem to not love that combo does give me hesitation to go forward with it as I also look at it as an investment.
    A custom built instrument is an investment in pleasure, but it is far more likely to depreciate 30% in your possssion than the opposite.
    1924 Gibson A Snakehead
    2005 National RM-1
    2007 Hester A5
    2009 Passernig A5
    2015 Black A2-z
    2010 Black GBOM
    2017 Poe Scout
    2014 Smart F-Style Mandola
    2018 Vessel TM5
    2019 Hogan F5

  30. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to pheffernan For This Useful Post:


  31. #44
    Registered User GeoMandoAlex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Traveling somewhere
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    I currently have a Weber Gallatin with a mahogany back and sides that I enjoy. Most likely would like to have a walnut back and sides if the funds are available. I have a maple back mandolin already, but the Weber gets the most playing time.
    I can only play half as much as I want, because I only play half as much as I would like.

  32. #45
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Beautiful Salem County, NJ
    Posts
    2,004

    Default Re: No to cookie cutter mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Meldrum View Post
    To put another spin on this, think of your brand... If you're going to be a serious builder, part of what makes your instruments special is that when people talk about your instruments they can find a commonality that they feel is important. . .
    I think Rob is making a good point here. To have a recognizable brand is something of value. There are plenty of examples in the mandolin world.

    One would be the brand Rolfe Gerhardt built with his Phoenix mandolins. His mandolins were different from the usual designs. Even through the different models, which were voiced very differently one-from-the-next, they all had his signature two-point look. And you knew generally what each model's voice would be, allowing for some variability due to individual mandolin differences. He made a line of recognizable mandolins that stood out from the typical mandolins and did so for many years. Unfortunately, his brand is no longer with us, but his mandolins live on.

    Another recognizable brand is that of Mike Black. Although he may make some different instruments from time to time, when we hear his name, we picture finely made mandolins of the A4 or A5 variety, or GBOMs. So if you're looking for a quality instrument in those styles, you know where to go.

    And how about Campanella? Again, we can close our eyes and picture his instruments. His style is his brand.

    But maybe a brand can be an ongoing series of one-of-a-kinds. I don't know how you'd get a following that way without first starving to death, but maybe it's possible. In the world of the small-scale winery (my arena) that brand recognition is important. It is what puts food on the table. My guess is, it's the same in the mandolin world.
    Purr more, hiss less. Barn Cat Mandolins Photo Album

  33. The following members say thank you to Bob Clark for this post:


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •