octaphone on ebay with a fake gibson label

[ollaimh]

there is wnat appears to be an octaphone on ebay with what looks like a fake gibson label. someone better at the inter web than me go link to that so people can look at it and give their opinions

[NickR]

There was a thread about this instrument on here which has now been closed. I would make the following points over and above what was discussed. The instrument, wherever and by whom it was made has US made hardware on it- the engraved tailpiece and the tuners. I would suggest the tuners are original because they have a chamfer to them which suggests they were chosen to fit the headstock shape. More interestingly, those tuners have rivets to hold on the gears. I have never seen this in that style of tuner and this may date the instrument- there was plenty of discussion on the original thread vis a vis the Gibson Inc label and the possible age of the instrument. The tuners are worm over gear which also gives a start date but I am sure the rivet aspect can tie down the date to a much smaller time frame.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is one closed thread but it's being discussed in the This weeks mandolin that won't get a bid or a buyer thread along with Timbofood's eating habits and Lauren Bacall as well.

[NickR]

Well, that appears to be a very wide-ranging discussion reaching out far beyond the normal laser like focus on small details.

[MikeEdgerton]

I do believe it was US Made. The tailpiece and tuners are US made items. The tuners are WWII era. They aren't riveted, that's a drop of brass on there to hold the gear in place. Common on instruments of the era. I'm assuming screws were needed for the war effort. That's a common engraved Waverly Cloud style tailpiece cover used by many builders. Gibson used that tailpiece on certain instruments but I've never seen one with that engraved cover. I seriously doubt it was made in Italy. A Cafe member was able to point out a time circa 1939 that Gibson used Gibson, Inc. I really don't know the history of the Virzi company but I don't think Gibson was offering a Virzi as an option that late. I'm not a believer and I think that instrument had zero to do with Gibson. YMMV. It's never going to sell at that price.

[rcc56]

It's a Chicago or NY area octave mandolin with a false label pasted in.
It was neither made by Gibson, nor for Gibson.

[Jim Garber]

It's a Chicago or NY area octave mandolin with a false label pasted in.
It was neither made by Gibson, nor for Gibson.

Not sure it was a Regal-made Octaphone either. The points and general shape of the body is different not to mention the headstock.

Look at these pics to compare:

[MikeEdgerton]

I get it that it might not be a Regal product but I still think it was made in the US and had zero connection to Gibson.

[Seter]

The seller is in Canada, were there any notable Canadian stringed instrument makers from that era or would have Canadians relied on imports?

[NickR]

I have a circa 1930 Ermelinda Silvestri Hawaiian guitar- and it has those oval markers on the board. The Virzi family was Sicilian. Here is an Ermelinda Silvestri mandolin- it has oval markers and that headstock shape is similar. Chuck an Octophone their way and ask them to make something similar and what would you get? As I have written, elsewhere, perhaps getting the instrument made in Europe was a good way of cutting costs- bolt on American hardware on arrival. The mystery instrument does state "Made in Italy" on that label.

[rcc56]

Some possible manufacturers: Lyon & Healy, J.R. Stewart, Oscar Schmidt. Perhaps a small shop. Probably not Vega or Galiano-- it's too plain.

Note that the seller has indicated that there has been some damage or repair to a side, but has not provided a picture.

[Seter]

I think the side damage is what can be seen in this picture:

[MikeEdgerton]

The fret markers were probably available from the same jobbers selling to everyone else. Could it be Canadian. Sure. I still think it was US made. I would discount anything on that label.

[NickR]

Although fret markers were made for the market I have not seen them on more than a few instruments, this mystery instrument and my guitar and on that Silvestri mandolin. Every other Silvestri guitar I have seen from the same era has dot markers- it is only the Hawaiian I have that has the oval version. I think that Germany was the source for most inlays at this time and they were exported to North America as well as other European nations.

[Jeff Mando]

I have a circa 1930 The mystery instrument does state "Made in Italy" on that label.

The label is FAKE and was added later. Why? Probably to make someone THINK it was Gibson related......

Impossible to do by pictures alone over the internet, but someone familiar with printing processes from 100 years could glance at it in person and tell if it is "period correct" or something concocted on a computer or xerox machine. If not at a glance, a magnifying glass would tell the story, for sure....I'm guessing in person the label would not "match" the era of the instrument.

People have been doing stuff like this for years and years. Some even buy 100 year old books and remove the blank pages and print on them so the paper looks right, things like that. In this case, I doubt if they worked that hard. My very first impression was that it was phony.

FWIW, things like this actually work on people who "want" to believe it is the world's rarest undocumented Gibson......it would be a great feather in one's cap and possible a good conversation starter at the next music get-together. I once had an impossible to sell old parlor guitar that was super cool and sounded great, but had no name on it. I took it to guitar show after guitar show with no interest. For a joke, my buddy says, get a dull pencil and write "Larson Bros" inside the soundhole faintly, where somebody would really have to study it to see it. Later that day, a couple guys were looking it over with the penlight and whispering to each other. Yep, it sold that day! Now, granted, it didn't sell for "Larson Bros" money, but it did sell and I bet that was the motivator, aka GREED, just like on this eBay listing. This instrument itself is great IMHO, but not for $1000, for a couple hundred I think a lot of people would like to own it.

[rcc56]

Maybe it was made by Giovanni Virzi Gibsonetti, Orville Gibson's Italian second cousin.

I will mention that the seller says twice in his ad that he cannot guarantee that the label is authentic.

[MikeEdgerton]

Maybe it was made by Giovanni Virzi Gibsonetti, Orville Gibson's Italian second cousin...

That I can buy into.

[brunello97]

.... For a joke, my buddy says, get a dull pencil and write "Larson Bros" inside the soundhole faintly, where somebody would really have to study it to see it. Later that day, a couple guys were looking it over with the penlight and whispering to each other. Yep, it sold that day! .....

As Truman Capote said "Don't let me commence...."

Oh, man. That is wicked.

Mick

[NickR]

The instrument needs to be looked over by an expert luthier.

As a personal example, I bought an old instrument on ebay with a snake head and mandolin tuners- it needed repairs but was badly packed and crushed in transit but I assumed it was in the mandolin family. I took it to the man who repairs my stuff- arguably Britain's best- although he would be annoyed if he read this at the suggestion. He looked at it and said it's a tenor guitar, he spotted a very slight indentation on the pointed snake head- and mentioned banjo tuners. I got home and searched and found the Windsor Whirle Tenor guitar- a knock off of the Epiphone Recording model tenor. When he had repaired it, he told me that it was made in Czechoslovakia and this was obvious to him, as to how the plates had been originally cut with the saw. I was incredulous, but he said it was something you get to know when working with instruments for over 50 years. Anyway, he completely reconstructed the paddle head, fixed 10 plus cracks, made new braces and a metal tailpiece and a guard and it's now a beauty. I have subsequently seen the 1927 Windsor catalogue page showing this instrument- Windsor also sold a less expensive tenor guitar made by none other than Ermelinda Silvestri in Sicily. However, I do not doubt that it was made in Central Europe because although retailed in the UK by Windsor, the evidence from the build shows its true origin.


With regard to the bogus label, it is my belief that the best way to perpetrate a con is to make it plausible. On that basis, I think we are in agreement this instrument has nothing to do with Gibson. However, as it looks European and I have suggested Sicily, then the label's "Made in Italy" statement may be correct. Has it anything to do with Virzi? Probably not- but we know that this was a famous instrument making family, so it could be others- and then the Gibson element to the label gains traction as there had been a collaboration. I am not going to speculate when the label was made- if it is a later addition etc. However, we know that faking is as old as time itself.

[Timbofood]

There was a period when some unseemly marketers were using watch dials(faces) that were printed “Swiss made”. When the Swiss watchmakers started to get some unpleasant reports of the appearance of these dials Chinese and eastern bloc movements, there was much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth until it finally stopped but, it went on for several years.
Unscrupulous people will simply do whatever they want to sell something that it isn’t real.
I offered “Sergio Gibsonia” in the initial thread but, I like rcc56’s take better!

So Mike, when do we meet for lunch?

[Jeff Mando]

There was a period when some unseemly marketers were using watch dials(faces) that were printed “Swiss made”. When the Swiss watchmakers started to get some unpleasant reports of the appearance of these dials Chinese and eastern bloc movements, there was much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth until it finally stopped but, it went on for several years.

Years ago, an old gentleman had a watch repair booth at a local flea market and I would take him vintage watches for repair. One day he had line of obviously fake Rolex wristwatches for sale that he had bought from some middleman. They looked pretty good, had a lot of bling, and most importantly had the Rolex name proudly displayed. They sold new for $25, I believe at that time. I joked and said I could buy one and make people think I had money! He replied that you could also get mugged and robbed for wearing one. I decided to pass......

[Timbofood]

I have loads of stories about fake Rolex watches.

[Russ Donahue]

It is the prototype - great-grandfather many times removed, if you will - of what was to become, through many trials, tribulations, and permutations, the most awesome, the bigliest, the grandest instrument of them all, the Shmergel Devastator.

Just look at it...you can tell. Really. You can tell.

We return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Jeff Mando]

It has been relisted on eBay with a $599 starting bid, no bids so far. NFI

[ollaimh]

Not sure it was a Regal-made Octaphone either. The points and general shape of the body is different not to mention the headstock.

Look at these pics to compare:

good comparison. it actually looks nicer than a regal, but a bit expensive unless you're hot for that kind of model.