Gibson Snakehead FON/Serial Nimber Question

[Eric Davis]

Hello all, I recently purchased a pretty cool Gibson A Snakehead but have a question about FON/Serial Numbers. The FON is 11204A which, according to Spann’s, puts it at an early 1925. The serial number, however, is 77453 which puts it at 1924. Spann’s also says that FON’s are more in line with build date and serial numbers align more to shipping date. How do I explain a shipping date before a build date or do I just consider it one of Gibson’s many inconsistencies of the post- popular mandolin era?

[rcc56]

According to my copy of Spann's, 77453 indicates a 1925 shipping date.
In my old copy of Gruhn's Guide, that would have been a '24 serial number.

Since Joe Spann is currently working at Gruhn's and George Gruhn is now using Spann's book as his shop reference for pre-war Gibson serial numbers, I would go with the '25 date.

Serial number lists have been updated from time to time over the years as new information has become available.

[Eric Davis]

You’re right; my mistake... it’s the Mandolin Archive that has it at 1924. 1925 it is!

[danb]

You’re right; my mistake... it’s the Mandolin Archive that has it at 1924. 1925 it is!

I've used a lot of Joe's information for ship dates at the archive, though if he has some new information from his latest version perhaps I should get back in touch with him

Actually I see I am already saying Spann attributes that to a 1925 shipping date.. his cut-off is Serial 79300 as of the first version of his book..

The argument goes that the FON was a manufacturing number (notes kept at gibson where the business would place an order for XX instruments, and a stamp was used to track inventory against that order).. and the Serial was entered as part of a warranty processing event (so more akin to a ship date).

The ones right around this time additionally can have a signature label (with Old Lloyd's John Hancock upon it), which is now the potential 3rd date referring to Loar's testing or approval (which could well have been done in batch, since so many of these labels bear identical dates) or piecemeal

[Darryl Wolfe]

This is an area where Joe and I respectfully disagree. I would like to suggest that he is correct in his thinking, but it only applies post Loar. I truly believe that prior to 1925/1926 the serial numbers were assigned to the FON batch as the instruments were closed up during construction. This is why we almost always see consecutive serials on the FON batches and then all of a sudden this changes post Loar. It also accounts for the relatively same pace of FON's and serials being issue prior to 25/26.


Gibson definitely changed their way of building and doing business right here. Their business model changed from build a batch to more like finish instrument of a batch as they are sold.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

This is an area where Joe and I respectfully disagree. I would like to suggest that he is correct in his thinking, but it only applies post Loar. I truly believe that prior to 1925/1926 the serial numbers were assigned to the FON batch as the instruments were closed up during construction. This is why we almost always see consecutive serials on the FON batches and then all of a sudden this changes post Loar. It also accounts for the relatively same pace of FON's and serials being issue prior to 25/26.


Gibson definitely changed their way of building and doing business right here. Their business model changed from build a batch to more like finish instrument of a batch as they are sold.

That sure makes some sense, Darryl. Do you think that also means that the Style 5 Master Models were not an exception (by having reserved serial numbers), like Joe suggests?
Joe locates many FONs in 1923, some of which do not really make sense at first sight: FON 11965 (an early 1924-signed F5 ser.# 75325) and FON 11985 (both a late 1924-signed F5 #79835 and several post-Loar/1925 F5s, s. a. 80782, 80783, 81250, 81251).

What do you make of this, Darryl? I could well imagine a few expensive F5s resting on the shelve for more than a year. Or may Joe be a little premature in the case of 1923 FONs?

[Darryl Wolfe]

That sure makes some sense, Darryl. Do you think that also means that the Style 5 Master Models were not an exception (by having reserved serial numbers), like Joe suggests?
Joe locates many FONs in 1923, some of which do not really make sense at first sight: FON 11965 (an early 1924-signed F5 ser.# 75325) and FON 11985 (both a late 1924-signed F5 #79835 and several post-Loar/1925 F5s, s. a. 80782, 80783, 81250, 81251).

What do you make of this, Darryl? I could well imagine a few expensive F5s resting on the shelve for more than a year. Or may Joe be a little premature in the case of 1923 FONs?

Correct. I do not agree with that "exception" part either. 11985 seems to the be FON for the entire Dec 24 group and the unsigned Loars. We really, really need to know some FON's in the 23 Loar area to help things out. The only thing that helps there is FONs for other '23 instruments. I've got a '23 A2 that fits right in the July 9 serial number range (73922). I believe its FON is 11865. I'd just about kill to have a July 9 Loar FON number to compare. That would ice the discussion

[NickR]

I have 73924 an A2 with the FON of 11865.

[Timbofood]

It is so interesting to me, not that I have any first hand knowledge of any of the “unusual” nature of FON series enumeration but, learning from you folks, sure as you’re born, make it an interesting anomaly!

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Correct. I do not agree with that "exception" part either. 11985 seems to the be FON for the entire Dec 24 group and the unsigned Loars. We really, really need to know some FON's in the 23 Loar area to help things out. The only thing that helps there is FONs for other '23 instruments. I've got a '23 A2 that fits right in the July 9 serial number range (73922). I believe its FON is 11865. I'd just about kill to have a July 9 Loar FON number to compare. That would ice the discussion

Thanks a lot Darryl, I fully agree. BTW I own a Loar-era F4 with - according to Joe - a 1923 FON (11982). The ser.-# of 76599 puts it right within some 1924 F5s.
And of course, I'd like to know the FON of my F5 (#75319). Since it's close in ser.-# to the above mentioned 75325, I tend to believe they are both from the same 11965-batch. Hence, a welcome addition to Joe's FON list in Vol. II would be shipping dates as evidence for 1923 FONs.
I'd also be interested, if perhaps only the Fern-Loars (and other style 5 instruments with similar features) were actually made in 1924, since those H5s have the typical - according to Joe Spann - 1924 FONs.

[Masterbilt]

A few years ago I compiled a list of A2Z models with known FONs and serial number - see attached image. I also compared soundhole ring and tuner styles.
As you can see, the two number systems are not quite synchronous in this period. The dates refer to Joe Spann's book.
Felix

[Eric Davis]

Thank you everyone for your replies; interesting stuff!