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Thread: Two live sound questions

  1. #1
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    Default Two live sound questions

    First question - Are any of you out there using EV ZLX15P's for acoustic gigs? My main band uses Yamaha DBR10's, with the bass going through an amp. Works well, light and easy to carry - I've been very happy with them. But in another group that I play with (and often do sound for), the bass player has no pickup and prefers to use a mic mounted to the bass - typically just a 57. I've run it through the DBR10's a couple of times now and it works, but I really feel like it's pushing them to their limit. A pair of ZLX15P's has shown up on the local CL at a good price. I'm tempted, but I like to research. Any experience or opinions would be appreciated.

    The second question has to do with dynamic mics. I seldom use them (except as mentioned above), but I want to add a couple more to the locker. Are 57's still the surest bet? Is the Beta worth the added cost? Are folks using any others that they like? Once again, all experience and advice is much appreciated.
    Mitch Russell

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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    If the power rating of your speakers is enough to handle the power of your amp I don't feel a mic on anything will damage the speakers. The mic will feedback first, and should not be able to drive the speakers to damage. I have done this with a bass into ten's for decades.

    The 57 has, if I remember, more proximity than the 58. Nothing wrong with either and both can mic an instrument. We used a 58 in the bass. It would depend on your use as to the beta's, I have not used them and still use both 58's and very rarely 57's. I also use some condensers, but mostly try to plug instruments in these days.
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    With the 15's, what you gain on the lower end, you lose in the mid-range clarity, and especially, in the transient response, i.e, the 'speed' at which the cone reacts. For acoustic music (and percussion) this is very important. Personally, I feel a 10" driver hits a 'sweet spot' insofar as live acoustic performance in smaller venues. 15's can get pretty 'muddy'. They are also (obviously!) a real PITA to haul around and pole mount...

    If you do need more bass extension, I would look instead at adding a sub. Even one would do it as these very low frequencies are not really directional. That way, you retain the excellent performance of the DBR10's and can 'scale' the system as required.

    You won't actually damage your DBR10's as they have very good protection circuits built-in, but you will lose some 'quality' if you push too much LF though them, hence, a separate bass amp (as you already use) or a sub makes sense.

    Some of the modern powered 12" subs are very good and I have found handle string bass very well. Easier to cart one of these than a pair of 15" mains.

    Re: Mic

    Not a huge fan of the old SM57... though they get the job done. The Beta's have a higher output and tighter pattern - just be careful if you buy 'used' as Ebay and Craig's list are absolutely flooded with very convincing looking fakes.
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    IMHO, the bass player should handle his own amplification. He can buy a larger powered speaker. Bass sucks up too much power in a small PA.

    One of my favorite and versatile pieces of gear from the late lamented Carvin is an acoustic guitar amp, the AG 300. With its floor firing 12" speaker, it will handle bass, and leave the PA to handle the rest.

    Sure, a sub will work if you have plenty of power.
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    Main difference in SM 57 and the 58 . is the ball screen, so mic won't slip out of your hand, when handheld.

    But the cartridge is closer to the end on the 57.. actual cartridge is the same for 57 & 58..

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    IMHO, the bass player should handle his own amplification. He can buy a larger powered speaker. Bass sucks up too much power in a small PA.

    Sure, a sub will work if you have plenty of power.
    We are talking about powered subs here... they have their own Class-D amplifiers built-in.

    The 12" sub to match the DBR10's for example has an 800W RMS amp, electronic X-over and 42-150Hz frequency handling at up to 134db....

    I would not recommend anyone going the passive speaker + power amplifier route these days, as the better powered speakers (mains and subs) will have custom DSP and perfectly matched setups all-on-one with much reduced need for cables and interconnects.
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    Thanks guys. This answers a lot of questions. My big concern was that I might be damaging the DBR10's somehow. And yes, I agree the bass player should be responsible for his own sound, but I'm also trying to be realistically prepared for whatever I need to do. I'm going to look into this sub thing, but all in all, it was the best we've had that group sounding.

    And again, thanks for the opinions and advice. I've been playing a long time, but I always feel like a total newbie when it comes to sound reinforcement. This forum helps me feel like I'm making reasonable progress on it.
    Mitch Russell

  11. #8

    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    I read somewhere that bass sucks up a very large percentage of any PAs power. We are able to fly our mains at an open mic venue where 10s would probably be plenty to fill the room, but to cover for the occasional bass plugging into the PA, we bought 15s, plus the venue has karaoke night. Its a quid pro quo situation.

    We built in an insane amount of headroom into the PA. Probably don't use a quarter of it's potential. And no one would haul those QSCs around. A sub is great, but it doesn't cover half a bass' frequency range. A bass (electric) player once showed me why he had a thousand watts into a three way cab. Clairity and headroom. there really are high frequency harmonics going on. In fact, my Carvin AG 300 started life as a bass amp. They just designed a new front end. Cab, speakers, and power amp are identical.

    That is why for acoustic groups, it can handle anything from mandolin and bass.
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    Plugging in a bass and micing a bass are two different things. If you can feasibly use that much power with a mic I would be impressed. It does take more power to push the low's and a speaker used for that will use that power to balance the sound with the highs at much less power. Most acoustic bands are not playing loud enough, especially with a mic, to have a problem with power in a PA for the bass.

    When we tri-amped a century ago we had more than eight times the power on the lows as to the highs, I doubt we ever came close to using all the headroom or power even outside at large events.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    I read somewhere that bass sucks up a very large percentage of any PAs power. We are able to fly our mains at an open mic venue where 10s would probably be plenty to fill the room, but to cover for the occasional bass plugging into the PA, we bought 15s, plus the venue has karaoke night. Its a quid pro quo situation.
    That idea of a bass sucking up power no longer applies the same way to modern active (powered) speakers like it did in the old days, when everyone used passive speakers and usually just one big separate amp to power them. Modern active speakers handle bass differently, with separate bi-amp (or in some cases tri-amp) circuits built into the speaker cabinet. Some might even include "smart" EQ like the QSC K series, that will gradually EQ out the lowest bass frequencies as the amplifier approaches full power output, so the speaker is producing the maximum SPL levels at full power.

    We built in an insane amount of headroom into the PA. Probably don't use a quarter of it's potential. And no one would haul those QSCs around.
    Which QSCs? There are some higher-end speakers in the line that are heavy, but the K-10 is only 32 lbs. The smallest powered sub in that range is 62 lbs, but that's not too heavy when it's on wheels. There are two heavier subs with extended range, but those are basically designed for EDM and Rap music where sub-bass is important, not acoustic music.

    A sub is great, but it doesn't cover half a bass' frequency range.
    That's why you build a system with a good crossover, which is already built into most active systems. The crossover feeds the lowest frequencies into the sub, and the rest go through the mains, up on stands.

    The lowest frequencies of an electric or acoustic bass are non-directional, so running them through a floor cabinet (sub) makes sense. The mid to high frequencies of a bass are directional, so splitting those frequencies with a crossover into the mains up on stands, means people in the back of the audience can still hear it. You don't get that with a bass amp on the stage floor. Although, I do think having the bass player use their own bass amp can work fine in a smaller venue, or where you don't want to use a sub for whatever reason.

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  15. #11

    Default Re: Two live sound questions

    QSC E115. 68#

    They are flown from the ceiling. Bought for just this venue. Fantastic speakers.
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