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Thread: 12-string Bowlback

  1. #1

    Default 12-string Bowlback

    Saw this in an antique shop last weekend. Unfortunately, it was falling apart. No label or maker's mark that I could find. I have not seen a 12-string mandolin. Does anyone know the history on this variation?
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  2. #2
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    I've heard triple-course mandolins referred to as "Sicilian", but they have been made in many places. Another term I've heard is "mandriola".

    http://www.stephensedgwick.co.uk/mandolins.htm

    https://www.fretboardjournal.com/col...ring-mandolin/

    " In Mexico 12-string mandolins are called tricordios and they are strung in four courses of three strings that are tuned in unison. (Here’s a clip of someone playing tricordio.)There is also a European version that is called the mandriola, which is also strung in four courses of three strings each, but usually with one or two high octave strings in the two lower courses. "

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ring-mandriola

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lat-1529174752

    "However originally it was used as a 12 string mandolin (typical of the Sicilian style) as their are 12 tuning pegs. "

  3. #3
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    The example in the picture was manufactured by the Oscar Schmidt Company of Jersey City, NJ.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  5. #4

    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    I saw this in Ishpeming, MI (upper peninsula). It was an iron mining town established in the 1850s, and there were lots of Italian immigrants. So that may explain how it got there. What were the clues to an Oscar Schmidt origin?

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  7. #5
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    That big OS in the middle of the pickguard. It's all telling.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  9. #6
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Schmidt seems to have made a large portion of the mandriolas (mandriolae?) manufactured in the US.
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Schmidt seems to have made a large portion of the mandriolas (mandriolae?) manufactured in the US.
    I wonder who Schmidt's target market for these were?

    Sicilians living in the NYC region? It is curious that we don't see 12 string bowlbacks coming out of the big Catania makers at this time.
    Eurodriolas tended to be flatbacks as did their primas Mexicanas.

    While I writing that, here's an English bowldriola for the record.....

    Maybe they thought to modify the headstock, etc of their existing mandolin body and neck and offer a version without major retooling.
    While German in origin, Schmidt had Ciani and his ragazzi around who might have had some influence.
    Or was the 12 string bowl a novelty instrument for Schmidt (like the "turn overs" etc) during the mandolin salad days.

    I've only played one and found it kind of a novelty. Not much of an improvement for me over double strings for melodies or tremolo. More of an annoyance, actually. I know some folks have tried some alternate tunings for richer chords / strumming but the pleasures of that eluded me. I've got a chorus box to plug my Schwab and EM150 into.

    Mick
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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I wonder who Schmidt's target market for these were?

    Sicilians living in the NYC region? It is curious that we don't see 12 string bowlbacks coming out of the big Catania makers at this time.
    Eurodriolas tended to be flatbacks as did their primas Mexicanas.
    I'm under the impression that the term "Sicilian" is less indicative of actual Sicilian usage and more of a marketing term.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I'm under the impression that the term "Sicilian" is less indicative of actual Sicilian usage and more of a marketing term.
    That makes sense, D. I have a real feeling that a lot of the mandolins labeled "Napoli" were actually made Down South. In conversations past, our friends, Victor K and Plami have hinted at similar evidence.

    Just like so much Sicilian wine getting shipped northward and labeled "____________".

    What is played (and drunk) at home might well be an altogether different thing.

    Mick
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    That makes sense, D. I have a real feeling that a lot of the mandolins labeled "Napoli" were actually made Down South. In conversations past, our friends, Victor K and Plami have hinted at similar evidence.

    Just like so much Sicilian wine getting shipped northward and labeled "____________".

    What is played (and drunk) at home might well be an altogether different thing.

    Mick
    Could be - but it works both ways. Sometimes the locals keep the best for themselves, other times it's more profitable to sell the best stuff.

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...3&d=1413319441

    http://www.musikalia.it/en/english2.htm

    http://www.musikalia.it/en/english2....card.asp?ID=78

    12 string, 4 course

    http://www.musikalia.it/en/english2....card.asp?ID=79

    16 strings????

    Interesting that Dr. Leone calls them "Mexican" and "Mariachi", rather than Sicilian.

    Here's a Framus:



    http://www.mandolinluthier.com/G12%20strings.htm

    old thread about 12 string mandolins...some of you guys already posted.

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...bruno-mandolin

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  19. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    It is curious that we don't see 12 string bowlbacks coming out of the big Catania makers at this time.
    Maybe not Catania but I have at least one 12-string bowlback each from Ricordi and Stridente (see below) in my files.

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    Even stranger are the 10 string mandolins that came out of a few Napoli shops. Not the usual 5 courses but double on the two bass courses and tripled on the treble courses. Ceccherini was one and Angara D'Isanto below.

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    Jim

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  21. #12
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Maybe not Catania but I have at least one 12-string bowlback each from Ricordi and Stridente (see below) in my files.

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    Yup - but not as common as one would expect if "Sicilian" mandolins were the type used commonly in Sicily.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Like Quasimodo, I have a hunch....that both the Miser Ricordi and Stridente were both made in Catania.

    The A + D'I is much more confidently Neapolitano.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post

    Interesting that Dr. Leone calls them "Mexican" and "Mariachi", rather than Sicilian.
    My 14 year old nephew plays in his High School Mariachi band here in Austin (not really your hotbed of such music).

    The Youth of America.

    Maybe Dottore Leone knows where his future market is?

    Mick
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    There was a 12-string on ebay a couple of years ago that was made in Cleveland, OH that I made an offer on but it was not accepted, I wanted it because it was a bowlback (first reason) and because it was made just north of where I live (Ohio connection - I thought that would be neat!) So they were apparently made it multiple places........

  28. #16
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Here is a list of older 12 string Mandolin Makers that I can find from my files (there likely are many more and even some made today):

    Stewart & Bauer Philadelphia
    Gibson Kalamazoo
    D’Angelico New York
    Garozza - Catania
    Grimaldi Catania, Italy
    Harwood St. Louis/New York
    Hozapfel Germany
    Pagani New York
    Ricordi Napoli
    Stridente Napoli
    William Wicht - Cleveland
    Oscar Schmidt - New Jersey
    Bruno - New York
    Levin- Sweden
    Lyon & Healy - Chicago
    Hawes, CC - Portland ME
    Menzenhauer - Germany
    Otwin - Germany
    F. Schwarzer - St Louis

    LadysSolo: perhaps the one you made an offer was a Wicht?
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    I can't remember for sure, but I DO remember the picture of the label inside said Cleveland, Ohio. It could well have been made by Wicht.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Here is a list of older 12 string Mandolin Makers that I can find from my files (there likely are many more and even some made today):

    Stewart & Bauer Philadelphia
    Gibson Kalamazoo
    D’Angelico New York
    Garozza - Catania
    Grimaldi Catania, Italy
    Harwood St. Louis/New York
    Hozapfel Germany
    Pagani New York
    Ricordi Napoli
    Stridente Napoli
    William Wicht - Cleveland
    Oscar Schmidt - New Jersey
    Bruno - New York
    Levin- Sweden
    Lyon & Healy - Chicago
    Hawes, CC - Portland ME
    Menzenhauer - Germany
    Otwin - Germany
    F. Schwarzer - St Louis

    LadysSolo: perhaps the one you made an offer was a Wicht?

    My guess would be that a number of these were "labelers" (Stewart, Harwood, Stridente, Wicht, Bruno, Hawes, Schwarzer) rather than makers. Couldn't venture a guess about the German Sicilians.

    Mick
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  33. #19

    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

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    Procuro informação sobre este instrumento?

  34. #20
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Translation:

    Seeking information on this instrument?
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  35. #21

    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    That looks like a flatback mandriola unless there is some sort of optical illusion going on.

  36. #22
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Ges: Post some additional photos of your mandolin. Also, you don't have to post your question in multiple places in the Forum. We will find it.

    Does it have a round back or a flat back?

    Ges: Publique algumas fotos adicionais do seu bandolim. Além disso, você não precisa postar sua pergunta em vários lugares no Fórum. Nós vamos encontrá-lo.

    Tem costas arredondadas ou costas lisas?
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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Here is a list of older 12 string Mandolin Makers that I can find from my files (there likely are many more and even some made today):

    Stewart & Bauer Philadelphia
    Gibson Kalamazoo
    D’Angelico New York
    Garozza - Catania
    Grimaldi Catania, Italy
    Harwood St. Louis/New York
    Hozapfel Germany
    Pagani New York
    Ricordi Napoli
    Stridente Napoli
    William Wicht - Cleveland
    Oscar Schmidt - New Jersey
    Bruno - New York
    Levin- Sweden
    Lyon & Healy - Chicago
    Hawes, CC - Portland ME
    Menzenhauer - Germany
    Otwin - Germany
    F. Schwarzer - St Louis

    LadysSolo: perhaps the one you made an offer was a Wicht?
    FWIW I have seen and had a brief go on a 12 string Ceccherini, and a friend of mine plays a German 12 string stave back.
    - Jeremy

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  38. #24

    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    LadysSolo: perhaps the one you made an offer was a Wicht?
    And, I guess the search for such an instrument would be a "Wicht hunt?"

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    Default Re: 12-string Bowlback

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    And, I guess the search for such an instrument would be a "Wicht hunt?"
    Seasonal, LOL!!

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