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Thread: To Have and Have Not

  1. #1

    Default To Have and Have Not

    I was watching this 1944 classic for the umpteenth time, and was finally able to take my eyes off the 19 year old Lauren Bacal long enough to take a look at Hoagy Carmichael's band in a scene shot in the bar of the Hotel Marquis.

    He had a mandolin player in his band. Didn't look like a Gibson. Anyone know what brand it was?

    The title of this post could well describe the state of my mandolin collection. Geez, only day five of my surgically induced mandolin hiatus. Does it show?

    OK not entirely correct, as I'm spending 20 minutes twice a day working on my tremolo. I'm up to 32nd notes at 72 bpm, up from 68. Finding the G to be the hardest string to play.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Ever been bit by a dead bee?

  3. #3

    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    They can sting you if they're dead, especially if they was mad when they died. One of the all time great character actors.
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  5. #4
    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Sorry, I'm still watching Lauren Bacall....

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  7. #5
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Might be a Lyon & Healy (?), oval-hole w/"shoulders," definitely not a Gibson.

    Played with the thumb, no pick.

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  8. #6
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    The same guy plays a tenor guitar behind Hoagy on "am I blue".
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  9. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Pretty loud for just a thumb. Almost a two point with a cant top. No idea who built it.
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  11. #8
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Yes, I think it's probably a 1920's Lyon and Healy style B, from Chicago, but without the pickguard. Or something closely related (Lyon & Healey supplied other makers, for example Regal, with similar instruments). Compare with the photo below and see what you think. But then again, the peghead is not quite exactly the same...

    Here's a picture:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You remember how to whistle, don't you, Steve? You just put your lips together and blow...
    Last edited by sblock; Sep-24-2018 at 6:28pm.

  12. #9
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Looks more like a lower grade Vega flat top to me.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  13. #10
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    That's a carved top, not a cant top and that has a different headstock and the points are different. It has some resemblance to the L&H Style E flatback mandolins from the early 20's. It's probably closer to the Regal flatbacks made from the late 20's to the mid 30's. That would make sense as L&H and Regal are intertwined at that point.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  14. #11
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post
    Looks more like a lower grade Vega flat top to me.
    Yup, that could be too. There is a point where a few builders are building very similar instruments.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  15. #12
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    I couldn't get a better shot.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  17. #13
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Yeah, L&H made a whole bunch of instruments for Regal. The mandolin in question has a significant resemblance to a 1920s Regal (similar 2-point design with high shoulders, similar oval holes, similar headstock). But this one has a different pickguard and inlays.



    Attachment 171373

    Too bad we can't make out the tailpiece well, which might help.

    Anyway, a Regal/Lyon & Healy/generic Chicago-area mandolin of the 1920's-'30s is probably close to the right answer.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by sblock; Sep-24-2018 at 7:15pm.

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  19. #14
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    That's kind of open to interpretation. Hubert Pleijsier's Washburn Prewar Instruent Styles and Bob Carlin's Regal Musical Instruments 1895-1955 books are pretty interesting reading. It would be hard for L&H to make them for Regal as they owned the Regal brand name at the time. Frank Kordick was an L&H employee. He was the guy that ended up running Regal.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  21. #15

    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Quote Originally Posted by spud3 View Post
    Sorry, I'm still watching Lauren Bacall....
    ....as she shimmys across the bar at the end of the movie.

    Ok, well I didn't notice the mandolin the last 40 times I watched the movie. You can be forgiven.
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  22. #16
    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I couldn't get a better shot.
    Here's a better shot of..... the mandolin.

    Eyes on the keys, Hoagy!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  23. #17
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    This movie and "The Big Sleep" were two of the greatest examples of what Hollywood could imply without ever showing anything on screen.

    Lauren Bacall could sure pour it on thick. Rita Hayworth also.

    Anyone who insists on concentrating on the mandolin is getting old . . .

  24. #18
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    This had cropped up in several threads before. Was discussed in the most depth here: Backing Up Bacall
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  25. #19
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Also, in another thread someone suggested that Hoagy Carmichael himself played this or a similar mandolin in episode 3, season 1 of Laramie, but I've never seen it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  26. #20
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Looks like a Vega cylinder-back, at least from the front, with those shoulders.

  27. #21
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Quote Originally Posted by spud3 View Post
    Here's a better shot of..... the mandolin.
    Eyes on the keys, Hoagy! Click image for larger version. 

Name:	maxresdefault.jpg 
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ID:	171375
    is there a mandolin in that picture?

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  29. #22
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Interesting, Jaycat and I have been jousting with old Bogart movie lines for years, this subject has been discussed on and off for some time. Fun. The Mandolin that is

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  31. #23
    Doc Ivory Doc Ivory's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    Bogey and Bacall.
    There was a cinematic match made in heaven though I can't say the same about their personal union.
    Doc Ivory
    -Play loud, live long..

  32. #24
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    The enchanting Lauren Bacall

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  33. #25
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: To Have and Have Not

    I'm still waiting to find out why Harry was also Steve.
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