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Thread: Medieval v modern mandolin

  1. #26
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Thanks David! I thought I remembered orpharions being wire strung, but wasn't completely sure.
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  3. #27
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    I'm really interested in early instruments. Find them fascinating.

  4. #28
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    If authenticity is the goal, you need to die by the age of 40, of tooth decay, or earlier of the plague.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  5. #29
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    If authenticity is the goal, you need to die by the age of 40, of tooth decay, or earlier of the plague.
    Oh no thats not my goal, I was just wondering what early mandolins were like

  6. #30
    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    Up to the middle of the 18th century mandolins were tiny lutes, 5 or six double courses, tuned mostly in fourths with gut strings and a fixed glued on lute type bridge. These are the instruments for which Vivaldi wrote his mandolin music. From the middle of the 18th century these were gradually replaced by the Neapolitan mandolin, with a deeper bowl body and floating bridge with strings a mix of gut (first course) and brass and tuned in fifths like a violin. Beethoven and Hummel wrote music early in the 19th century for yet another kind of mandolin, the Cremonese mandolin, which had four single strings of gut tuned in fifths.

    Cheers
    Thanks, Graham. The nylon-string Cremonese mandolin (also called mandolino Bresciano) that Graham mentions is one of the "authentic" early-mandolin designs being reproduced today; you can see one over at Lorenzo Lippi's site. Also check out the historical publications on Lorenzo's website; he's done extensive research on early instruments. Lippi agrees with what Graham said -- the Cremonese/Bresciano design is the one ideal for Beethoven.

    Alex Timmerman has produced a very informative chart "The Italian Mandolin: Its evolution, nomenclature and types." He's made it available; not hard to find. Timmerman dates the beginning of the Cremonese/Bresciano mandolin to 1790 -- well after the invention of the Neapolitan design. Also the mandolino Milanese is another gut-string design from the same era.

    Check out "The Early Mandolin: The Mandolino and the Neapolitan Mandoline" by James Tyler and Paul Sparks.
    Exploring Classical Mandolin (Berklee Press, 2015)
    Progressive Melodies for Mandocello (KDP, 2019) (2nd ed. 2022)
    New Solos for Classical Mandolin (Hal Leonard Press, 2020)
    2021 guest artist, mandocello: Classical Mandolin Society of America

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  8. #31
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    One of the disks in my classical collection
    Would it have been originally played on one of those Bresciano mandolins, with 4 strings?






  9. #32
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Minorkey View Post
    One of the disks in my classical collection
    Would it have been originally played on one of those Bresciano mandolins, with 4 strings?
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co....com/hist.html

    "Baroque mandolins were strung with gut and generally plucked with the fingers. The mandolino usually had six courses, or pairs of strings (although some of the earlier models only had four). It was very similar to the soprano lute, except in its tuning, proportions of the body, and shape of the head (which was a scroll shape rather than angled box-shaped unit). Mandolino tuning varied but was most commonly a mixture of 4ths and 3rds (as was the lute), with (from bottom to top): g, b, e', a', d", g". This contrasts with today’s mandolin which is tuned in 5ths like a violin, g, d', a', e". Sometimes it may have been plucked with a quill to make it louder.....

    The best known composer for the Baroque mandolin is Antonio Vivaldi (1678-1741). Vivaldi left us a single and double mandolin concerto.....

    https://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_...nio)#tabScore2

    https://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_...nio)#tabScore2

    I would assume it was written for the 6 string Baroque mandolin, but I scanned the mandolin parts and they seem quite playable on a modern Neapolitan mandolin. It should work on a 4 string Brescian type too.

    I assume the experts will add their wisdom.

  10. #33

    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Check out anything by Jordi Savall/Hesperion.

    I would suggest you check out oud - progenitor to all our lutes/guitars/mandolins... there's vast lineage and repertoire to explore, and not a terribly difficult instrument to undertake - given that medieval music precedes the complexity and refinements of renaissance, baroque, etc (not talking the more complex forms of Arabic maqam here).

    Like you, I became increasingly interested in early forms. I also delved deep into particular tonalities wrought by steel (brass, bronze, assorted alloys) - hammered dulcimer, wire clarsach, etc - which is another world altogether.

    Oud, on the other hand, has much affinity with mandolin/guitar concept, technique, etc. As a classical guitarist delving deeper into flamenco, I found oud and the medieval period of al-andalus eminently compelling. Ethiopia, Somalia, throughout the Mediterranean and into continental Europe - oud is/was a principle instrument on which traditional (medieval) forms were sung.

    For a simple approach to medieval sound, style, aesthetic - oud is most logical and effective.

    *recordings such as occident/orient are a good place to start.
    https://youtu.be/FpVANDDb-Qs
    Though there are numerous others across broad styles.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Sep-22-2018 at 3:03pm.

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  12. #34

    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Check out anything by Jordi Savall/Hesperion.

    I would suggest you check out oud - progenitor to all our lutes/guitars/mandolins... there's vast lineage and repertoire to explore, and not a terribly difficult instrument to undertake - given that medieval music precedes the complexity and refinements of renaissance, baroque, etc (not talking the more complex forms of Arabic maqam here).

    Like you, I became increasingly interested in early forms. I also delved deep into particular tonalities wrought by steel (brass, bronze, assorted alloys) - hammered dulcimer, wire clarsach, etc - which is another world altogether.

    Oud, on the other hand, has much affinity with mandolin/guitar concept, technique, etc. As a classical guitarist delving deeper into flamenco, I found oud and the medieval period of al-andalus eminently awe-inspiring. Ethiopia, Somalia, the Mediterranean, and into continental Europe - oud is/was a principle instrument on which traditional (medieval) forms were sung.

    For a simple approach to medieval sound, style, aesthetic - oud is most logical and effective.
    I've pondered getting an oud, is there a particular brand/purveyor of affordable yet functional ouds to test the waters with? I see a range of ouds available on Thomann, some for under 300.

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  14. #35

    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Best place to check is Mike's oud forum. Some decent starter instruments show up there for 400-500 usd.

    As with violins, an inexpensive one may be perfectly suitable for learning provided the peg box/pegs are reliable, and action is reasonable. There are mid-east importers supplying new ones to markets here and elsewhere - many instruments available for under $1K, and significantly less, are fine starters, with the above provisio. Whatever you get, whether expensive or cheap, must have well-functioning pegs/box. If a luthier needs to refit, of course it's usually better to invest in a quality instrument.

    That said, my Egyptian oud prbly cost $75 on the street in Cairo. A student brought it to the US and sold it for $300 (to me). I had my luthier re-fit the pegs. It's a very basic, unadorned oud, but functional. My Turkish oud is much nicer - prbly came through the importers - and needed no fettling of the pegs. I've been wanting a nicer Arabic oud, but mine has been sufficient so far..
    Last edited by catmandu2; Sep-22-2018 at 3:55pm.

  15. #36
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Yes I follow an oud maker/repairer on Instagram. The only thing with the oud is it is always associated with Arabian/Turkish/middle east music, which uses a different mode to Western music. And yet it is essentially a lute! Oud is an arabic word meaning wood.

  16. #37

    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Minorkey View Post
    Yes I follow an oud maker/repairer on Instagram. The only thing with the oud is it is always associated with Arabian/Turkish/middle east music, which uses a different mode to Western music. And yet it is essentially a lute! Oud is an arabic word meaning wood.
    Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss what you're meaning by "medieval" music. What geographic region perhaps? Since musical traditions vary in tonality from place to place. The reason I mention Hesperion, in particular, is because the ensemble has explored threads of commonality among traditions of the period. Prior to the advent of later tonal systems (say, central European, 12tet, etc), tonality among Arabic, Hellenic, etc traditions was likely prevalent in many regions throughout the European continent (recent findings in scandinavia support the link with Arabic culture in the north) - depending on who held dominion of the day. Tonality was probably closer to these sources than, say, Bach.
    https://youtu.be/IvVVNm9i_ew

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  18. #38
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    I'm not quite sure, but I mean early western music, tudor times, madrigals and such.

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  20. #39

    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    And consider distinct differences between court music and rural music traditions too..

    I recently heard a program on the travails of that time, the purges, etc which included music too.

    *Was on UK media channel -
    Last edited by catmandu2; Sep-22-2018 at 7:43pm.

  21. #40
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Music history is a fascinating subject. I'd love to find a good book covering the subject.

  22. #41

    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Concur. Well good on you for exploring the realms. I'm not and never've been a scholar - I haven't near the patience nor perseverance. There are some good early music sites though - another victim of short attention span..

  23. #42
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Minorkey, I'm curious about the mandolins used in the Vivaldi recording. Hogwood and the Academy of Ancient Music play period instruments—gut strings, no shoulder or chin rests, no endpins for cellos, bows that curve out instead of in, simpler versions of wind instruments—and I assume they play at low pitch, A=415 or so rather than A=440.

    Are there pictures with the CD?

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  25. #43
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    The mandolinist on the Hogwood recording is the late Tom Finucane, who was known primarily as a lutenist. I haven't heard the recording, but it would seem likely that he used a gut-strung baroque mandolino of some kind. There's some information about Tom on the website of Barber and Harris, British lutemakers who built some of his instruments:

    http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/gallery.htm

    Elsewhere on their site, Barber and Harris describe the four models of baroque mandolino they produce (some with 4 courses, some with 6) and refer to a couple of other musicians who have recorded the Vivaldi concerti with a couple of their 12-string models:

    http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat09.htm

    The Vivaldi concerti do sit quite nicely on a 5ths-tuned Neapolitan instrument, but being a Venetian he most likely wrote them for the Venetian mandolin, which AFAIK would resemble the 12-string baroque mandolino.
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  27. #44
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    Minorkey, I'm curious about the mandolins used in the Vivaldi recording. Hogwood and the Academy of Ancient Music play period instruments—gut strings, no shoulder or chin rests, no endpins for cellos, bows that curve out instead of in, simpler versions of wind instruments—and I assume they play at low pitch, A=415 or so rather than A=440.

    Are there pictures with the CD?
    Unfortunately there are no photos, but in the booklet is says that its a 1983 made instrument, made by Nietzert

  28. #45
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Having looked at various early mandolins online I am wondering if I could convert my modern mandolin into such an instrument, which had 4 single strings tuned gdae. It already has a high string missing, I just need to remove the other 3...

  29. #46
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Check out the classical forum. There are many older discussions on playing classical and older styles of mandolin as well as playing music originally intended for other instruments.
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  30. #47
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    I suppose what I'd really like is a bowlback mandolin for playing early music. Oh and I'd like a lute too. And a Balalaika...and...and....it never ends

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  32. #48
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Baroque mandolin played by Caterina Lichtenberg on a modern reproduction. As David noted above very different tuning and set up with 6 courses of gut-like strings. She also is a classical player and uses a modern German-style bowlback.



    Here is another ensemble playing music by Roberto Valentini a 17th century composer:

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  34. #49
    Deacon M100A Minorkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Definitely my kind of music there Jim!

  35. #50
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Medieval v modern mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Minorkey View Post
    Music history is a fascinating subject. I'd love to find a good book covering the subject.
    We used this book when I was getting my BA in music:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...6YW3HWK55XCGG2


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