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Thread: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

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    Default Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

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ID:	171152For those who don’t know, denatured alcohol fumes, alone, can attack the optic nerve and lead to blindness. Denatured, or wood, alcohol is ethyl alcohol (moonshine) with methyl alcohol added. Denatured alcohol is commonly sold at hardware stores. Drying time of shellac is shorter with methyl, and I guess this is the trade off is you want to risk it.

    Isopropyl alcohol metabolizes to acetone, a known carcinogen, in your system.

    My alcohol of choice for either luthiery or bluegrass music is 420 Extractor, a marijuana-centric discount Everclear sold here in Colorado. I suppose in the case of bluegrass playing, ingestion of Everclear could also lead to another sort of blindness, but makes the whole experience worth it.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Marijuana - based alcohol solvent? Is there anything that stuff can't do?
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Not to contradict the warning, but alcohol can be denatured with various different toxic additives, not always just methanol. Regardless, we need to treat it like the poison that it is.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Not to contradict the warning, but alcohol can be denatured with various different toxic additives, not always just methanol. Regardless, we need to treat it like the poison that it is.
    My father, an organic chemist, told me early on the main reason alcohol was denatured was to stop the workers from drinking it. Basically, it was made deadly to keep the ranks in line.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
    My father, an organic chemist, told me early on the main reason alcohol was denatured was to stop the workers from drinking it. Basically, it was made deadly to keep the ranks in line.
    Yes - also avoids the "sin tax" of straight ethanol.
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

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    Well, 42O Extractor is just another example of what's called an overproof alcohol, at 190 proof, or approximately 95% ethanol (ethyl alcohol = "grain alcohol "). It can be used for human consumption, and it carries a tax stamp ($$), just as Everclear does (which is another, more popular form, of overproof alcohol). Like whiskey or vodka or any other booze, buying it can get somewhat expensive (over $30 for a 1.75L bottle of 42O Extractor). You should also know that overproof alcohols are not available for sale in quite a number of states, including here in California. The version of Everclear that's sold in California is watered down to just 151 proof. Everclear at 190+ proof requires a permit up in Canada. And in the state of Virginia, too. Everclear is not available in Michigan and Florida, or so I'm told. And so on. Check your local laws. The same would hold true for 42O Extractor, of course.

    Denatured alcohol carries no tax stamp, costs significantly less, and is deliberately made unfit for human consumption by the presence of a denaturant. Sometimes, the denaturant is about 10% methanol (methyl alcohol = "wood alcohol"). But not all denatured alcohol contains methanol! Some denatured alcohol contains denatonium, which imparts an incredibly bitter taste, but is otherwise harmless. And nonvolatile. Some denatured alcohols contain isopropanol, methyl-ethyl ketone, ethyl acetate, tert-butyl alcohol, or other similar compounds that dissolve easily in ethanol and have similar boiling points.

    It's my opinion that the OP is greatly exaggerating the risk of having ~5-10% methanol in 90-95% ethanol. ALL volatile solvents, including ethanol itself, should always be used in moderate amounts inside a well-ventilated area. After all, too much ethanol vapor is also known to produce harm, and denatured alcohol is 90% of that! Remember that ethanol is technically a poison, as well (the damage threshold is just higher than for methanol)! And the very same precautions apply to lacquer, paint, and other finishes or solvents. And ditto for some types of glue, as well. These are all poisonous. But in the quantities typically used for luthiery and in the modes applied, the health risk of methanol fumes from denatured alcohol is darned near zero when denatured alcohol is used appropriately. I am not aware of a single case of methanol-induced harm (e.g., blindness) from inhaling denatured alcohol vapors. Historically, many cases of blindness happened during the Great Depression from folks drinking denatured spirits, but the quantities involved there were immensely greater than those reached by simply inhaling incidental vapors! We're talking hundreds of thousands-fold to millions-fold greater doses.

    As for isopropanol being used as a denaturant, it might get metabolized to acetone all right (as the OP says), but the amount created by breathing volatile fumes is truly inconsequential. Remember, you're not drinking it! You also need to know that the human body naturally produces small amounts of acetone itself (and other so-called ketone bodies, like acetoacetic acid, beta-hydroxybutyric acid) from the metabolism of fats! This is the reason why marathon runners develop "fruity breath" towards the end of long runs, after their bodies deplete the glycogen reserves, and it's also the reason why diabetics can sometimes develop ketosis. These small amounts of acetone are not linked to cancer, and it seems a bit irresponsible to suggest that inhaling miniscule amounts of isopropyl alcohol, in vapor form, would might somehow cause cancer from denatured alcohol. That strikes me as being on the same level as some conspiracy theories.

    Denatured alcohol is just fine, and you should not be scared off it so easily. The vapors that come off modern finishes and stains (nitrocellulose lacquer or polyurethane, for example) are significantly more hazardous. And so is the dust created from sanding many types of wood.

    The OP's claim that methanol fumes can attack the optic nerve and somehow cause blindness is spurious and would not seem to be backed up by any science whatsoever. Those wanting to learn more about the dangers of denatured alcohol should consult an MSDS, like this one https://www.atmos.umd.edu/~russ/MSDS..._denatured.htm. Blindness only comes from the acute ingestion of methanol (i.e., drinking it), not from vapor inhalation.

    I hope that the OP has no connection to the folks who make and sell 42O Extractor in his home state. Larskpur, CO, where Mystic Mountain Distillery (makers of 42O) is located, is about halfway between Denver and Pueblo. The OP's location is said to be "Somewhere south of Denver and north of Pueblo," which would place him rather close to the site of this distillery.
    Last edited by sblock; Sep-16-2018 at 1:40pm.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Hear, hear. Well said, sblock.
    My FI radar was twitching when I read the original post.
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
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ID:	171152For those who don’t know, denatured alcohol fumes, alone, can attack the optic nerve and lead to blindness. Denatured, or wood, alcohol is ethyl alcohol (moonshine) with methyl alcohol added. Denatured alcohol is commonly sold at hardware stores. Drying time of shellac is shorter with methyl, and I guess this is the trade off is you want to risk it.

    Isopropyl alcohol metabolizes to acetone, a known carcinogen, in your system.

    My alcohol of choice for either luthiery or bluegrass music is 420 Extractor, a marijuana-centric discount Everclear sold here in Colorado. I suppose in the case of bluegrass playing, ingestion of Everclear could also lead to another sort of blindness, but makes the whole experience worth it.
    Bill this is not an attack on you personally but to correct the considerable amount of misinformation in your post!

    First acetone (the simplest ketone) is NOT a carcinogen) -- period.

    Second your knock on isopropyl alcohol is unwarranted.

    Isopropyl alcohol is one of the safest to use and least toxic of all alcohols. The fact that a small amount of it is metabolized to acetone is not a reason to avoid using it in a safe manner. Water is also toxic but kind of necessary.

    Isopropyl alcohol is LESS toxic than ethanol (ethyl alcohol) and MUCH LESS toxic than methanol (methyl alcohol) and as a result isopropyl alcohol is less toxic than the 420 extractor that you are recommending! Good grief.

    You are also spreading confusion about ethanol and methanol it seems to me. This is definitely NOT GOOD.

    You state: "Denatured, or wood, alcohol is ethyl alcohol (moonshine) with methyl alcohol added." NO! Years ago methanol and even benzene was used to denature ethanol or to break the water-ethanol azeotrope --not anymore.

    Another topic of confusion in your post: "Everclear" is ACTUALLY a solution of crude ethanol, usually abut 93 - 95% ethanol. Everclear is a form of "moonshine" and it results from the water-ethanol azeotrope that comes in to play when doing a distillation of grain (like corn) fermentation.

    Wood alcohol, aka methanol aka methyl alcohol IS quite toxic to drink especially and IT is methanol that is often associated with retinal and neural damage and with blindness not ethanol.

    Sorry but your post was not useful to individuals trying got work safely in a wood shop or doing luthiery.
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    The OP's claim that methanol fumes can attack the optic nerve and somehow cause blindness is spurious and would not seem to be backed up by any science whatsoever. Those wanting to learn more about the dangers of denatured alcohol should consult an MSDS, like this one https://www.atmos.umd.edu/~russ/MSDS..._denatured.htm. Blindness only comes from the acute ingestion of methanol (i.e., drinking it), not from vapor inhalation.

    I hope that the OP has no connection to the folks who make and sell 42O Extractor in his home state. Larskpur, CO, where Mystic Mountain Distillery (makers of 42O) is located, is about halfway between Denver and Pueblo. The OP's location is said to be "Somewhere south of Denver and north of Pueblo," which would place him rather close to the site of this distillery.
    I’m the CEO of 420 Extractor. Seriously, though, inhalation of any alcohol fumes causes it to enter the bloodstream unfiltered by even the liver, absorbed by the lungs and distributed systemically; this goes for methyl alcohol, just like any other alcohol. Alcohol is lipophilic, or fat-attracted, and the myelin sheaths surrounding the optic nerve are directly effected. Read the MSDS, and then do further research at a place like nih.com, and other sources. If you’re alarmed, good, because you should be. I think that caution is the word of the day with these toxic fumes, and I hope this warning causes you to build a ventilation hood over your work site. After a youth spent in industrial settings and a swan song as an RN, I recognize the cumulative effects of life long exposures. Where I grew up, the leading cause of death in men who worked at DuPont dyes was bladder cancer, and this might make me a bit more aware of toxic exposure issues.

    As for toxic exposure to ethanol, share that flask, brother.
    Last edited by Bill Romansky; Sep-16-2018 at 5:49pm.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
    I’m the CEO of 420 Extractor. Seriously, though, inhalation of any alcohol fumes causes it to enter the bloodstream unfiltered by even the liver, absorbed by the lungs and distributed systemically; this goes for methyl alcohol, just like any other alcohol. Alcohol is lipophilic, or fat-attracted, and the myelin sheaths surrounding the optic nerve are directly effected. Read the MSDS, and then do further research at a place like nih.com, and other sources. If you’re alarmed, good, because you should be. I think that caution is the word of the day with these toxic fumes, and I hope this warning causes you to build a ventilation hood over your work site. After a youth spent in industrial settings and a swan song as an RN, I recognize the cumulative effects of life long exposures. Where I grew up, the leading cause of death in men who worked at DuPont dyes was bladder cancer, and this might make me a bit more aware of toxic exposure issues.
    First, the right thing to have done would have been to disclose your clear financial conflict of interest in your initial post. The MC has rules about this, and in my opinion, you have violated these. You seem to be stirring up medically unwarranted concerns about health in order to sell more of your own product. That is self-serving, and it leads me to question your motives.

    Second, don't tell me (or others) to do "further research" at a place like the NIH. (Ironically, as it happens, I am a researcher and I am funded by the NIH!) There is no evidence whatsoever, to my knowledge, that the level of methanol fumes associated with the use of denatured alcohol (containing ~10% or less methanol) by luthiers poses a health risk of any kind. All chemical poisons with volatility -- including your own product, 42O Extractor -- should be used in a properly ventilated area. The same goes for glues, dyes, finishes, solvents, strippers, and so on. Nothing new or different about that.

    Third, I HAVE read the MSDS! In fact, I attached it to my last message for everyone on the MC to read. A loss of eyesight is NOT associated with the inhalation of methanol fumes, and the MSDS says as much. All of which leads me to wonder if you are being disingenuous, here. Instead, blindness is only associated with the "acute ingestion" of methanol, which involves drinking rather significant quantities.

    Fourth, I think that spreading disinformation, based purely on your own uninformed suppositions about medical dangers that have never been established, is reprehensible behavior. Yes indeed, alcohol is lipophilic and nerve sheaths contain lipids. But then, olive oil is equally lipophilic (in fact, it IS a lipid!) and my belly fat contains lipids. So what, I ask? This is not evidence of any medical danger. It is not even evidence of a toxic mechanism.

    And finally, it strikes me as pretty ironic that someone who claims to be "more aware of toxic exposure issues" than the rest of us is working in the marijuana industry in Colorado, which is a source of any number of potentially toxic exposures -- not just to cannabinoids and unfiltered smoke, of course, to but all manner of other solvents and fumes.
    Last edited by sblock; Sep-16-2018 at 6:08pm.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Grain alcohol. Always a big hit at parties in my teens.
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Sblock, is this now Facebook, where I need to put (sarc) after what’s a joke to everybody but you? All kinds of danger from my human biology-based research. Your appeal to authority is Socratically notes. You’re pretty fast at Googling, but 20+ year of understanding on this issue is on my side, as you appear to be drawing some kind of line in imaginary sand.

    May I share a sip of ethanol?

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
    I’m the CEO of 420 Extractor. Seriously, though, inhalation of any alcohol fumes causes it to enter the bloodstream unfiltered by even the liver, absorbed by the lungs and distributed systemically; this goes for methyl alcohol, just like any other alcohol. Alcohol is lipophilic, or fat-attracted, and the myelin sheaths surrounding the optic nerve are directly effected. Read the MSDS, and then do further research at a place like nih.com, and other sources. If you’re alarmed, good, because you should be. I think that caution is the word of the day with these toxic fumes, and I hope this warning causes you to build a ventilation hood over your work site. After a youth spent in industrial settings and a swan song as an RN, I recognize the cumulative effects of life long exposures. Where I grew up, the leading cause of death in men who worked at DuPont dyes was bladder cancer, and this might make me a bit more aware of toxic exposure issues.

    As for toxic exposure to ethanol, share that flask, brother.
    Sorry more misinformation!

    The bladder cancers at DuPont were due to azodyes not alcohol.

    You are calling alcohols "lipophilic". All alcohols are not the same!!!

    That statement is only partially true for SOME alcohols and completely UNTRUE for the kinds of alcohols we are talking about here.

    Longer chain aliphatic alcohols like butanol, pentanol hexanol are SOMEWHAT lipophilic relative to water at least - - the longer the hydrocarbon chain the more lipophilc the alcohol becomes.

    But small alcohols like what we are dealing with here are not remotely lipophilic their colligative properties in solution are dominated by the relatively polar hydroxyl group not the hydrocarbon end!

    Ethanol, methanol and isopropanol are completely miscible in water -- that means they will dissolve in any amount completely in water. That is the complete opposite of the description of a lipophilic compound.

    Go TRY to dissolve some butter in methanol or ethanol -- I can assure you that you won't have much luck.

    Or even better go try to dissolve olive oil in ethanol and see what happens -- you won't be able to do it.

    Methanol, ethanol and isopropanol are NOT lipophilic by an reasonable definition .
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Equating ethanol with wood alcohol in your OP, along with the numerous other problems there that have been pointed out, especially the conflict of interest you've now confessed, should have been enough to change your tune, Bill. Are you still arguing with sblock? You can easily have been working in a field for 20+ years and still have confused or incomplete understanding of the sciences involved. I've worked with all types of film finishes and solvents for 38 years, and still learn things all the time that I've gotten wrong over the years. Maybe it would be good for you to follow your own advice and do some more research.
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Bernie, then ETOH ingestion should have no effect whatsoever on that glob of fat we call the brain. Thanks for clearing that up. Why, then, does methanol attack the optic nerve and the myelin sheath, a mostly lipid covering, specifically? For your future reference, I attached a pertinent link.
    http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Alcohol_i...sms_of_fatigue

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
    ... 20+ year of understanding on this issue is on my side, as you appear to be drawing some kind of line in imaginary sand...
    I'm not sure what it is that you think it is that you understand --- but chemistry, biology and toxicology are not included in your quiver of arrows I suspect.
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    My apologies, alcohol is myelin-lipo-specific-philic, one point for the other side, but one point retracted for a red herring.

    Mark, OSHA only shows up after the lead paint is already removed, us having not been told and wearing no respirators or other PE. I AM NOT THE CEO OF 420! This is what’s known as a bit of sarcasm. Really, guys, you’re turning a pedagogic moment into a Facebook SJW session. Come back to the mandolin, let’s share a bit of Everclear, which I am also not the CEO of.
    Last edited by Bill Romansky; Sep-16-2018 at 6:54pm.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I'm not sure what it is that you think it is that you understand --- but chemistry, biology and toxicology are not included in your quiver of arrows I suspect.
    You’re posting a bit quick, it doesn’t seem you’ve had time to check the resources provided. Maybe just look into hard medicine on the subject. It seems there’s a bit of defense being mounted on behalf of toxic exposure, like chemical Stockholm Syndrome.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
    Bernie, then ETOH ingestion should have no effect whatsoever on that glob of fat we call the brain. Thanks for clearing that up. Why, then, does methanol attack the optic nerve and the myelin sheath, a mostly lipid covering, specifically? For your future reference, I attached a pertinent link.
    http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Alcohol_i...sms_of_fatigue

    Bill it seems to me that you keep mixing up methanol up ethanol and that is a very bad thing to do!!


    ETHANOL: Did you find a discussion of the "lipophilicity of ethanol" if the reference you cited? No. Ethanol is classified as a central nervous system depressant because it both activates and suppresses several types of neural receptors. One of those class of receptors that dramatically responds to a neurotransmitter called Gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) are strongly activated by ethanol molecules sticking to them. GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter, so the activation of this receptor by ethanol causes GABA to bind at higher then normal levels and thus slows the brain down — it makes you feel calm and relaxed and eventually intoxicated. Also why intoxicated people tend to be unstressed and uninhibited and slurred in their speech.

    METHANOL: Methanol which I expect is not used by anyone here in their work is highly toxic and as little as 10 grams is highly toxic -- 20 grams can be fatal.

    But methanol is NOT toxic because it is lipophilic (like you say) that has little to do with it.

    Methanol is toxic and causes neural and ocular damage because it is METABOLIZED TO FORMIC ACID which is highly reactive and which will cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve by denaturing the proteins. Please stop trying to play toxicologist.

    In fact the emergency treatment for someone who has consumed methanol is to treat them with ethanol. This is to try an block the formation of formic acid and let the methanol get unmetablized to the urine.

    To prove to you that I am not scared of ethanol I am having a beer. But I do not drink methanol! LOL
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    SBlock, what’s your field of expertise? I guess you’ve been a bit too busy to catch the news of the latest craze, vaping ethyl alcohol. Alcohol fumes go right through the alveoli, returned by the pulmonary vein to the left ventricle and atrium, out the aorta, up the carotid, and straight to the brain. Chronic exposure to toxic alcohol fumes, especially methyl, is not a neutral event, and I would be interested in understanding your defense of it.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Bernie, I’m not mixing ethyl and methyl up, just using ethyl as the leading example as we’re a lot more familiar with its inTOXICating effects. I again apologize, alcohol is myelin-specific-lipo-philic and destructive, either directly or through it’s metabolite, methyl alcohol extremely so. You’ll note in the OP, I specified methyl alcohol as the culprit, and you seem to be conflating methyl and ethyl.
    Last edited by Bill Romansky; Sep-16-2018 at 7:33pm.

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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Supplemental question: Is there any way to block a thread?
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moss View Post
    Supplemental question: Is there any way to block a thread?
    Answer: Yes, by being mature enough to refrain from reading what does not interest you?
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Romansky View Post
    Bernie, I’m not mixing ethyl and methyl up, just using ethyl as the leading example ...

    And that in itself is a mistake. While the chemical properties of methanol and ethanol might be similar to some extent their biological properties are so different and the consequence so dramatically different that using one as an example of "an alcohol" could be a fatal decision. There is a reason why people get PhDs and other advance degrees in toxicology....
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    Default Re: Warning: Denatured Alcohol FUMES are dangerous

    My having neither degree doesn’t discount the reliability of available resources. Again, I reiterate, restate, and am redundantly repeating that methyl alcohol is the denaturing agent I referred to in the OP, and that it’s fumes can attack the optic nerve. Talking about nerves, I seem to have hit one among my mandolin friends who, like me, have managed to live through a hell of a lot of exposure. Thinking back to the 80s when I was 24/7 in restoration, I remember zoning regs preventing my boss from installing a ventilation hood, as EPA regs required some pretty expensive absorbers and scrubbers. Maybe this is the issue resulting in such defensiveness, I don’t know. I’m not trying to disrespect anyone on this issue, just trying to inform.

    Almost bedtime, so I bid you a goodnight.

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