Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 44

Thread: What I hate most about mandolin

  1. #1
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,083

    Default What I hate most about mandolin

    The A course.

    I can't keep the A's in tune, and I spend a lot of time tweaking those strings, and when they're off, I can't play. It hurts my head.

    I need to hear near-perfect fifths when the open A and E course rings together, and I need to hear near-perfect unisons between the A course 7th fret and the open E course.

    I'm doomed.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  2. The following members say thank you to Mark Gunter for this post:


  3. #2
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,013

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I need to hear near-perfect fifths when the open A and E course rings together, and I need to hear near-perfect unisons between the A course 7th fret and the open E course.
    That's good that you are aiming for "near-perfect" fifths...the mandolin cannot be tuned to perfect open fifths but rather they have to be 12 tone ET fifths.

    The only intervals on guitar, mandolin, banjo, and any other 12 tone ET fretted instruments that match the pure tuned version is the unison and octave.

    As for the A string, folks have tried various gauges of plain strings, various wound types. So far I just keep making sure the A's are as in tune as possible - mine seem to want to go sharp more often than flat.

  4. The following members say thank you to DavidKOS for this post:


  5. #3

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Tim Obrien says "mandolin" is an old Italian word that translates into "needs tuning".

    Or,the old axiom,"Mandolin players spend half their time tuning;and the other half playing out of tune."

    There is some masochism involved in playing mandolin.

    Just be thankful you didn't decide to play one of those little tiple things with THREE course strings. Gaaa!

  6. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to V70416 For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    This Kid Needs Practice Bill Clements's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    800

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    The A course.
    I can't keep the A's in tune, and I spend a lot of time tweaking those strings
    I "hear" you, Mark. That intonation bug bites all of us. Do violinists have the same devil to deal with?
    David, please explain your reference to "12 tone ET fretted instruments".
    Thanks in advance.
    "Music is the only noise for which one is obliged to pay." ~ Alexander Dumas

  8. The following members say thank you to Bill Clements for this post:


  9. #5
    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Rockville, MD
    Posts
    1,916
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Have you checked your mandolin note by note with a strobe tuner? Tune the A and then test each half step? I'll bet you have low frets playing sharp. This can but from a high nut but also from a fretboard that is a bit too long from nut to first fret.

    With a good fretboard you will not hear those equal-tempered (ET 12T means equal-tempered 12-tone scale) as out of tune. If the frets are correct and a strobe tuner says they yield correct half steps, unisons and octaves will be perfect and 5ths and 4ths will be so close you will not them as "near-perfect". I suspect many mandolin makers have not yet caught on to what some guitar makers like Taylor (and some mando luthiers) do, shortening the distance to the first fret to ensure the low frets behave.

    I do notice my A course can jump out of tune with itself if I pick too hard, probably because some tension switches to the peg side of the nut.

    Yes, bowed instruments have to deal with equal tempering when they play with winds and pianos (or guitars). Viola has a big problem if you tune your A and then go three perfect 5ths down---the C will be flat to anything equal-tempered. This problem is exacerbated by the fact the too-wide 5ths sound much sweeter than too-narrow. So even slightly incorrect "perfect" 5ths will sound fine to a fiddler if wide.
    Bandcamp -- https://tomwright1.bandcamp.com/
    Videos--YouTube
    Sound Clips--SoundCloud
    The viola is proof that man is not rational

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tom Wright For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    SE Florida
    Posts
    119

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    What I dislike about the mandolin really has nothing to do with the instrument, it's the way my pinkie fingers angle. My hands are smallish and my pinkies are short but as I curl my fingers the pinkies angle outward so it is very difficult to get the left hand pinkie to reach out for scales and chords. Plus the pinkie lays on the string at an angle so what might work on guitar (single string / wider target) becomes crazy difficult on mandolin.

    On guitar it seems to be less of an issue (plus years of practice) because of the straight across layout of 4ths tuning. Mandolin "2 frets per finger" mode exacerbates the way my pinkie works and the only work around is constant practice which unfortunately I do not have lots of time for at the moment.

    But, we each have anatomy issues because we are all built different. That makes certain things easier for some and harder for others. I try to remember that for every problem where someone says "I can't do it" there are folks who have figured out a way around it.

    And on the other question . . .

    Part of the problem is that in our "western" music system the scale steps are fudged to facilitate scales and chords sounding good as one moves around the circle of 5ths. Before that (meaning the harpsichord), orchestras played mostly on one key and had to re-tune to play in other keys.

    Then you have a fretted instrument which also is fudged by compensation on the bridge and string height and getting it "perfect" is impossible. All I do is get it as close as I can for the instrument. Sometimes that means you can get the 12th fret perfect and sometimes another fret works better (like the 7th).

    When you then add the issues of tuners, nut slots, strings, temperature and humidity, it's a wonder we can can play in a group!

    And it is a great feeling (Thanks Rob M!) when I take out my Rogue Mandolin and it's in tune!

  12. The following members say thank you to ukenukem for this post:


  13. #7
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,210

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin


  14. #8
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    820

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Just be happy it's not a banjo.
    Information on lessons, gigs, and misc musical stuff: www.mattcbruno.com
    Weekly free Mandolin Lessons: www.mattcbruno.com/weekly-posts/
    My gear and recommendations: www.mattcbruno.com/gear-recommendations/
    Cooking fun: www.mattcbruno.com/quarantine-cookbook/


    Mando's in use
    Primary: Newson 2018
    Secondary: Gibson F9 2014
    Primary Electric: Jonathan Mann OSEMdc 5

  15. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to mbruno For This Useful Post:


  16. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Kernersville, NC
    Posts
    2,593
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I can't keep the A's in tune, and I spend a lot of time tweaking those strings, and when they're off, I can't play. It hurts my head.
    It's worse when I record. On guitar the B string gave me the same ear fit.

    I tried different combos of E and A sizes thinking it was an uneven tension issue - but never found a noticeable improvement

    What bothers me most about mandolin tuning is when one of the pairs is off noticeably from the other. I usually find that out when my break starts at a jam.

  17. The following members say thank you to Mark Wilson for this post:


  18. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    That I can't play as well as Sam or Dawg.

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Denny Gies For This Useful Post:


  20. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    799

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    It is definitely changing strings. So I love the mandolin but hate to change the strings. Having more than one mandolin does not help the situation. A motivated entrepreneur could start a company where you call, e-mail or text them and a person comes buy your house and changes your strings, tunes you up, makes a few basic set up adjustments if needed and leaves with a smile. Multiple instruments get a discount so get your guitar or banjo done while the technician is there. String Changers-R-US or something like that.

  21. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Hudmister For This Useful Post:


  22. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,811

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Clements View Post
    Do violinists have the same devil to deal with?
    Violinists have to adjust their playing to account for the difference between the spot-on intonation they can achieve sans frets, and the fixed intonation of other instruments. So I'm given to understand, anyway.

    Most stringed instrument players become slightly deranged over stuff like this. Then add variables such as different picks, bows, string choices, and it's easy to understand why.

    If it's any consolation, I'm told that oboe players all go mad from the increased intracranial pressure playing their instrument requires.

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bob A For This Useful Post:


  24. #13

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Sometimes I get the feeling I'm out of tune by one winding. Then it's too late for flat wound strings.

    Fiddles you can tune how you want. The bridge is not compensated. So with the exception of open string, you're creating the fret/intonation with your finger(s). I back-engineered my fiddle tuning from a fiddle I found to have an unusually sweet tone: I tune my A to 440. My G to 2 cents flat. My D is in perfect 5ths to my G. My E is in perfect 5ths to my A. You'd think the open A & D would sound off but they don't.

  25. The following members say thank you to farmerjones for this post:


  26. #14
    Registered User gspiess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    301

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    By having my mandolin out of tune, folks don't notice my singing as much.
    Being right is overrated. Doing right is what matters.

    Northfield F5S Blacktop
    Pono MND-20H

  27. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gspiess For This Useful Post:


  28. #15
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Red Rector's words to the young Norman Blake, sometime in the late 1950's:

    "If you're going to be a mandolin player, there's two things you need to know-- 1] You're never going to make any money, and 2] You're never going to be in tune."

    In all seriousness, an electronic tuner will only get you into the ballpark. Then, the instrument must be tempered by ear. Every mandolin will be a little bit different. When I'm fine tuning an instrument, I check the open fifths, the open string against the higher octave, the seventh fret against the open note, and sometimes a couple of other things. Instead of making one pairing sound perfect, I try to make them all sound tolerable. It takes time to learn the process. If the frets are correctly located, and the nut and the bridge are correctly adjusted, the mandolin can usually be tempered reasonably well. But some mandolins are positively ill-tempered no matter what you do.
    Last edited by rcc56; Sep-14-2018 at 1:19pm.

  29. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rcc56 For This Useful Post:


  30. #16
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    825

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Mark, this comes down to a math problem, and the limitations of 12-tone equal temperament. Pure fifths, where you hear no beats, are a few cents wider than ET fifths. Any tuning system requires compromise, and you have to pick your poison.

    I assume modern fretted instruments are tuned in ET, but I'm not positive. The age of the instrument comes into play here---things were different during different eras.

  31. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Louise NM For This Useful Post:


  32. #17

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    It's bad enough the A strings are never in tune, but when you try to tune them, they will go every which way no matter how much or little you twist the knobs.

    But what I hate most about mandolin is that it's relatively quiet compared to other instruments. But that's also a reason I like the mandolin. You can play it alone at home and it won't bother anybody.

  33. The following members say thank you to sbhikes for this post:


  34. #18
    Registered User Dave Fultz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Columbus, Oh
    Posts
    141

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Why any strings in the same course, over night, or even while playing will have one string go sharp and the other string go flat?

    Also the fact that there are 6 fret chords. I can handle retuning but I am new to the mandolin and my old hands have a tough time with F let alone the 6 fret ones

    Also the fact that I didn’t realize the A course was problematic. I do now and it’s going to drive my hinky self crazy.

    ============
    ~Music self-played is happiness self-made
    ——————————
    Loar LM-590
    Kentucky KM-272

  35. The following members say thank you to Dave Fultz for this post:


  36. #19

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Pressing too hard with light stings (near the nut) can cause strings to go sharp, even if the instrument itself is built and setup correctly.

    On guitar, with jumbo frets, and extra-light strings, the B string was always slightly sharp for me for any fretted note, I tuned it low to compensate, but eventually I realized guitar wasn't going to be my main instrument. I still have hopes for mandolin. :-)

    Mandolin has taught me to cope with out-of-tune instruments better though, because everybody else is always out of tune with me. :-)
    Davey Stuart tenor guitar (based on his 18" mandola design).
    Eastman MD-604SB with Grover 309 tuners.
    Eastwood 4 string electric mandostang, 2x Airline e-mandola (4-string) one strung as an e-OM.
    DSP's: Helix HX Stomp, various Zooms.
    Amps: THR-10, Sony XB-20.

  37. #20
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    Posts
    2,335

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
    Why any strings in the same course, over night, or even while playing will have one string go sharp and the other string go flat?
    also

    It's bad enough the A strings are never in tune, but when you try to tune them, they will go every which way no matter how much or little you twist the knobs.
    If one string of a pair is going flat overnight while the other goes sharp, or vice versa, OR if the string goes sharp or flat in the opposite sense to the way you are (correctly) turning the tuning knob, then this signals a problem with your mandolin. It is not a quirk of the A-string (or any other), nor it is not a quirk of mandolins in general. In all likelihood, it means that one or more of your strings is binding at the nut. In such a case, the tension in the string below the nut (i.e., between the nut and bridge) is not equal to the tension above the nut (i.e., between the nut and tuning post). As this tension equilibrates slowly overnight, the string will slowly go sharp or flat, and it will change its tuning relative to the other string in the same pair. Also, fiddling with the tuning knob can release the string from its bound state. If you are nominally trying to flatten the string note, but the tension above the nut is too high, the unbinding event can cause the string to go sharp (and vice versa), resulting in "opposite tuning." Small amounts of string binding can also occur at the bridge, but this is much rarer, and the effects on pitch tend to be less.

    Those of you experiencing these either of two problems, which ought never happen, very likely need some work performed on your nut. One or more nut slots may be cut slightly too narrowly, or too deeply, or have the wrong shape at the bottom (a tight V-notch is bad!), all of which can, and will, result in string binding. Or, they may be angled incorrectly. They may not be properly lubricated, for that matter (use graphite or some commercial compounds made for this purpose). You can do any necessary nut work yourself or you can take your mandolin to a competent luthier. Either way, please realize that you do not have to live with this problem! It is quite commonplace on mandolins purchased on a budget that haven't been professionally set up, but it can develop also on more expensive instruments, or if you happen to change the gauge of your strings from those originally matched to the nut slots. Regardless, this problem can be fixed.

    My mandolin's courses can certainly go sharp or flat overnight, particularly in response to temperature or humidity changes, but the two strings of each course will go equally sharp or flat together, and only rarely are out of tune with one another. And that's how it ought to be.
    Last edited by sblock; Sep-14-2018 at 5:17pm.

  38. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sblock For This Useful Post:


  39. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    I heard Wake Frankfield say that he liked to be a little out of tune - so that it sounded like more than one of him playing...
    You could try that philosophy.

    Kirk

  40. The following members say thank you to tiltman for this post:


  41. #22
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charlottesville Va
    Posts
    1,052

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    I can't figure out what's wrong with my mandolin. When I play, it sounds something like this...

    https://youtu.be/NoLdlmr-v2w

    Where do I get one that sounds like yours?
    We are the music makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams

  42. #23
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,083

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Name:  7-bart-dead-simpsons.w529.h529.jpg
Views: 1306
Size:  57.9 KB


    Impossible to hate anything about the mandolin, right.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  43. #24
    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Alameda, California
    Posts
    2,484

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    The A course. I can't keep the A's in tune, and I spend a lot of time tweaking those strings, and when they're off, I can't play. It hurts my head.
    I feel you pain, Mark. Those A strings are pesky.

    Still, never hurts to start with the obvious:

    How often do you change strings? I find that when I start having trouble with getting the instrument in tune, it usually means that I need new strings.

    Also, are you sure your bridge is in the right place, standing up straight, and with a saddle that is compensated correctly?

    And every once in a blue moon it turns out that a fingerboard just isn't fretted accurately. In that case new strings and perfectly well-placed, well-compensated saddle won't do you any good.
    Just one guy's opinion
    www.guitarfish.net

  44. The following members say thank you to Paul Kotapish for this post:


  45. #25
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,083

    Default Re: What I hate most about mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Kotapish View Post
    I feel you pain, Mark. Those A strings are pesky.

    Still, never hurts to start with the obvious:

    How often do you change strings? I find that when I start having trouble with getting the instrument in tune, it usually means that I need new strings.

    Also, are you sure your bridge is in the right place, standing up straight, and with a saddle that is compensated correctly?

    And every once in a blue moon it turns out that a fingerboard just isn't fretted accurately. In that case new strings and perfectly well-placed, well-compensated saddle won't do you any good.
    You're right as rain, Paul, you can never just automatically assume the musician's instrument is setup correctly. It's not old strings, or improperly placed bridge or saddle. The A strings are troublesome for me on both my mandolins, but I have the worst time with this mandolin that I made a new nut for a couple years ago. I've tweaked the A course slots numerous times over the first few months but have never gotten it right. My slots are not too narrow or too wide, they appear to be the same depth, and they slope downward a bit toward the headstock, so I gave up long ago trying to tweak them further. But I'm only an amateur luthier (which is to say I'm no luthier at all), and I'm pretty sure that my nut on that particular instrument is a problem.

    Still, the A course has given me trouble on every mandolin I've owned.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •