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Thread: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

  1. #1
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Having had issues all my fiddling life with bending, leaning and collapsing violin bridges, and never having such problems with my mandolin family instrument bridges, I wonder why violin bridges aren't more robust? Things I've considered:
    1. Mandolins have a lot more tension with heavier strings and twice the strings of a violin. They need a stouter bridge.
    2. Violins have infinite sustain (just keep the bow moving). Mandolins have much less sustain. Does a violin bridge design contribute to more or less sustain than a mando bridge?
    3. The violin's strings are much higher off the soundboard than the mando's. Consequently there is a greater moment arm and greater bending moment (mechanical engineering terms but I think the meaning is obvious) for the violin bridge.
    4. The violin bridge is further weakened by the intricate cutouts traditionally used - standard two-piece mando bridge doesn't employ this.
    5. Hardanger Fiddles are even further weakened by the cutout for the under strings. The understrings add aditional bending force to the bridge.

    Bottom line - has anyone developed a stronger violin bridge, along the same lines as a standard mando bridge? This would work great for Hardanger understrings as there is ample room for them.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    I'm going to hazard a guess that the light weight tall bridge is part of what makes a violin sound like a good violin. Grover many years ago developed an answer to tipping banjo bridges that might be applied with a little adaptation to a violin bridge.

    The Grover non-tip banjo bridge

    It looks like it would be an easy adaptation.
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Violin bridges filter a continuous input, and have low sustain.
    Violin bridges cut double crowned and maintained in an upright position last a long time. I have seen some 100 years old still working, with minor repairs.
    Mandolin bridge saddles break sometimes.
    Stephen Perry

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Mandolin bridges and violin bridges do about the same thing statically: support the strings and function as the terminus of the vibrating length of the strings. Dynamically, they don't do exactly the same things. Although they both are the connection between the vibrating string and the top and do much of the work of transferring energy from the strings to the rest of the instrument, they do that is somewhat different ways, especially at lower frequencies.
    Because the bow flattens the movement of violin strings, most of their motion is side to side, whereas plucked strings eventually (shortly after being plucked) move in all directions nearly equally. As the bow pulls the string to the side until the string releases, the bridge is pulled to the side a little bit also, so at lower frequencies the bridge sort of rocks side to side and the cut-outs are trimmed to optimize the spring-like behavior of the bridge to adjust the sound. That basically doesn't happen with mandolin bridges. Add to that the function of the sound post (present in violins, absent in mandolins) and there is another avenue for discussion.
    It is all much more complicated than that, but the bottom line is; bowed instrument bridges and plucked instrument bridges are not called upon to do the exact same thing, and therefore they are physically different. The tall, thin violin bridge came about over centuries of bowed instrument building and experimenting, so it was more-or-less "reverse engineered" or evolved rather than designed to do what it does, and improving it would be a tall order. They can be considered disposable, as I see it, almost like strings. Use it until it is too worn and bent to perform well, then replace it.

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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Cutouts reduce the bridge mass as well, and are to some degree simply art.

    As pointed out, they have to be tall for good leverage by the sideways-moving string to pivot on the soundpost and pump the bass side. Unlike guitar, banjo and mandolin bridges, the wood is itself a high-frequency radiator. Much of the sparkle of violins comes directly the bridge, which kicks in at around 2K Hz.

    To keep violin and cello bridges straight requires a modest amount of attention to a developing warp. When you see a slight warp, simply tilt the bridge a bit away from it. The combination of flat feet and the new tilt will counteract the warp and it will straighten up.

    Because of the different break angle on the two sides of the bridge a slight bias on the feet to lean toward the tailpiece helps keep it straight. But mainly, keep an eye on it and straighten it when it tilts. Standard technique is grip both sides of the bridge while stabilizing the violin on your lap, and apply force near to the top of the bridge. (Same grip is useful for moving bridge laterally if it is off center, applying force to the bottom.)
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Mandolins have far more 'natural' sustain (comparatively speaking) than a Violin. Played 'open',a mandolin string(s) will sustain for a decent amount of time. An open note played on a Violin on the other hand,will decay pretty rapidly by comparison.

    Have a look at this page to see a few ''different'' bridge designs :- https://www.murphymethod.com/index.c...t&contentId=87

    I've seen many pics. of mandolin bridge designs over the years i've been playing,some of which,appear to ''try to approximate'' the design of Violin bridges. Red Henry's made more than a few,
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    not really your question , and you probably know all this anyway but for those who don't ,

    every time you tune you may move the bridge, fine tuners help, pencil on the bridge slots, all can help , but you need to move that bridge back into position every time you do some major tuning and also just over time with small adjustments.

    I don't think I have ever had a violin bridge do that, and I have not heard that many people do, I would guess most bridges are replaced because of the sting slots become too deep to repair without losing the height over the Fb .

    its just a matter of keeping it t 90 degrees from the top. I am looking a a viola i made in 1988 or so, with the original bridge ( I have not played it since 1990 or so it been hanging on the wall) its still as straight as it was back then.

    I do have a cello up in storage for 20 years that is severely warped because I don't do any thing with it.

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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    While a violin bridge won't move forward like a mandolin bridge, it will tilt forward. You need to straighten a violin bridge or it will warp. Mandolin/violin both need bridges looked after, just in slightly different ways.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I'm going to hazard a guess that the light weight tall bridge is part of what makes a violin sound like a good violin. Grover many years ago developed an answer to tipping banjo bridges that might be applied with a little adaptation to a violin bridge.

    The Grover non-tip banjo bridge

    It looks like it would be an easy adaptation.
    Training wheels?

    I guess one of the reasons violin bridges are optimized for low mass is volume. You can quickly add mass by putting on a mute, and it shows what mass is doing on a bridge: mute the sound.
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    Default Re: Violin Bridge vs Mandolin Bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    While a violin bridge won't move forward like a mandolin bridge, it will tilt forward. You need to straighten a violin bridge or it will warp. Mandolin/violin both need bridges looked after, just in slightly different ways.
    On that note, I tilt my banjo bridge away from the neck, seems to improve overall tone. Has anyone done this with mando?

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