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Thread: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

  1. #1
    Registered User Jesse Kinman's Avatar
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    Default Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Hi all, I did a trial run on removing some frets from my Kentucky KM900, I removed the top 8 frets from the Florida. I will eventually scoop it, so I’m not worried about how it looks now, but I don’t want the rest of the fretboard to look like this when I go to change out the frets in the near future with wider ones. I do plan on giving it a radius too when I do that, so if it does have some minor chips I can potentially eliminate some of them, however... this looks horrible though, it looks like the frets were glued in at the factory, and there is major chipping going on here.

    How can I prevent this from happening on the rest of the board?
    Thank you in advance, Jesse
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Heat up the frets with a soldering iron to loosen the lignin in the wood and make it rubbery as you extract the fret.
    Use flush-ground fret pliers which support the wood as you pull it out.
    Accept the fact that some of them will still chip out. No matter how good you are at this, there will always be some chunks or chips that have to be dealt with. An expert refret is not one which is extracted with no chips (that's luck, not skill), but how well you can put it back together.

    What you have there is pretty bad. You can definitely do better, with heat and proper fret-pulling pliers. It's mostly about the tools, but partly the knack of working from side to side while keeping the wood supported. If you liken it to a band-aid, you want to go "slowly slowly slowly" and not "1-2-ARRRGH" with it.

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  5. #3
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Wet the board around each fret and heat it with a soldering iron so you get steam under the fret. That will soften up the Ebony so it is less likely to chip. Then heat the fret with a soldering iron and use flush-ground pliers to pull the fret out. With a bit of luck, you can get them all out with no chipping, but expect a few small chips.
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  7. #4
    Registered User Jesse Kinman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Ok, that all makes sense. I’ll definitely do that when I get to pulling the rest. I didn’t want to spend the money on the fret pulling pliers from StewMac, so I bought a $2 pair from Harbor Freight and ground them down, but I didn’t go slow, it was more like the “1-2-ARRRGH”
    I was wondering if maybe I should treat the fretboard with oil beforehand as it doesn’t look like it has a finish at all from the factory, it looks really dry, but the water makes sense beforehand. Thanks for the advice guys, I appreciate it!
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  8. #5
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Soldering iron. Good lifting tool. Work your way across slowly. Make 2 passes if necessary.

    A good lifting tool is well worth the money. In the old days we had to make our own, and spent a quarter of the time re-working them over and over again to hope they would make it through another fret job. My Stew-mac lifting tool has gotten me through somewhere around 150 fret jobs without having to re-work it.

    Scoring under the crown with an X-acto knife helps on difficult lifting jobs.

    I have used oil, water, or nothing. If it's brittle, use something.

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  10. #6
    Registered User Jesse Kinman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Alrighty thank you! I will be buying some tools here soon, so I’ll probably just go ahead and get a good pair of pullers. Now an X-acto knife, that I do have!
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  11. #7
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Im no luthier but, I wouldn't put any oil on it until I finished the job as a fingerboard treatment. Oil seems like it would prevent any repairs from being made to the chip outs. No glue I can think of sticks to oil.

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  13. #8

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Haven't tried these yet, but they look the business.

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  15. #9
    Registered User Jesse Kinman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Yeah, I didn’t consider gluing down chips, so yeah, definitely nothing before hand.

    I just recently saw those Marty, I hadn’t seen that video before with the fret puller till tonight.
    I was looking at the difference between the cheaper puller and the precision one, do you think for somebody like me that will be doing small stuff here and there, and plans on eventually doing repairs and building as a part time then possibly full time job in maybe 10 years, would spending the $28 more for the precision puller be a worthwhile investment?
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  16. #10
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    Haven't tried these yet, but they look the business.
    They've cut a feeler gauge in two. What do you get when you cut a feeler gauge in two? Two feeler gauges!
    ...And that does the job just as well for me.
    Actually, not having the thing cut completely in two can help keep the two halves close to the fret, but I've had good success using to pieces of shim stock, and two thicker pieces of metal for those old Gibson frets with the nicks along the bottom of the tang rather than barbs like newer fret wire.

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  18. #11

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    They've cut a feeler gauge in two. What do you get when you cut a feeler gauge in two? Two feeler gauges!
    ...And that does the job just as well for me.
    Actually, not having the thing cut completely in two can help keep the two halves close to the fret, but I've had good success using to pieces of shim stock, and two thicker pieces of metal for those old Gibson frets with the nicks along the bottom of the tang rather than barbs like newer fret wire.
    Fair enough, a bandsaw kerf in a piece of shim stock and off you go (plus 20 seconds of flossing with 220 grit sandpaper to deburr). Good call.

  19. #12
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    Haven't tried these yet, but they look the business.
    Be aware that they will not prevent chips from forming but their function is more in keeping the started chip in place without losing it. You will have to start pulling the fret with just the pullers before you can isert the shims and on some woods the cracks are already there from (brutal) installation only waiting for you to make them free.
    I heat the frets with soldering iron - I use the "pistol" type and instead of the heating wire I used two nails with notches in their ends app. 1" apart (a can adjust for wider boards) and just contact the fret for few seconds and it heats evenly (don't contact it too close to binding - you can melt it). Whenever a chip forms I glue it back immediately after pulling thet fret so it won't get lost. After pulling all frets I run a tiny bead of CA along all slots on both sides as that are sometimes tiny hidden cracks either from pulling or previous installations and without this you may lose some chips during planing or sanding. From there basic procedure of cleaning slots, chamfering and installation af new wire.
    Adrian

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  21. #13

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    wet the fret board, heat the fret to generate some steam and break any glue bond, work the fret out slowly and you will be astounded at the difference between that and simply pulling the fret dry

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  23. #14
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    In that video that Marty posted it is useful to look to the slots where the frets have already been removed...

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    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Jesse, I use a pair of end cutting nipper that have been ground down and polished to fit under the fret. I use that after they have been heated.

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  27. #16
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Kinman View Post
    Yeah, I didn’t consider gluing down chips, so yeah, definitely nothing before hand.

    I was looking at the difference between the cheaper puller and the precision one, do you think for somebody like me that will be doing small stuff here and there, and plans on eventually doing repairs and building as a part time then possibly full time job in maybe 10 years, would spending the $28 more for the precision puller be a worthwhile investment?
    The longer you wait, the more they will cost.

    I don't spend money unnecessarily on "boutique" tools when hardware store stuff will work just as well, but I don't skimp on fret pullers, cutters, tang nippers, or nut files.

    If you're going to do much fret work, good lifters, cutters, tang nippers, and tang crimpers will pay for themselves on the first job in labor time saved and more accurate and better looking work.

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  29. #17
    mandolin slinger Steve Ostrander's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    I'm not a luthier, but I've heard of oiling the heck out of the FB to reduce chipping. Any comments from real luthiers?
    Living’ in the Mitten

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  31. #18

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Jesse,

    I feel for you. I have refretted several master model Kentuckys and they were among the most brittle fingerboards I have dealt with on newer mandolins. I also use a pistol grip soldering iron with nails, but still got more chipping than usual.

    Just so you don't get another surprise. The KM-900 fret tang is 0.5mm, not .58mm (0.23).
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  33. #19

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Jesse,

    The experts have spoken above, but there is one tip not mentioned that I find important. Those little chips weigh almost nothing.
    They will blow away from your own breathing if you aren't careful. I actually try to remember to hold my breath if I lean in close to examine my progress. Its a lot easier to glue them down if they're still there.

    Just sayin'

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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    I bought the Stu Mac fret pliers decades ago, they were worthless and chipped on the blades. I bought the hardware end nippers in a small size and ground them down. I did not buy the $2 ones, spend enough to get a quality nipper and carefully grind them down not getting them too hot. Been using them for decades and work fine.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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  37. #21

    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    There is some overreaction here, IMHO. Yes, the tiny chips are annoying, but keep in mind, depending on the width on the new fret installed -- many times -- most of the chips are hidden by the new fret. (remember the side-view of the fret is T-shaped) Especially, when installing larger size frets, which many of us do on the refret. That being said, yes heat the fret and be as slow and careful as you can when removing it to keep the damage to a minimum. Yes, I'm for any gadget that does a better job. Not to mention planing and sanding of the fretboard before refretting, which would make the chips a non-issue, right? Ya gotta think the repair through before you start.

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  39. #22
    Registered User Jesse Kinman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Thank you all for chiming in, I appreciate the advice. I’m actually looking forward to doing it now!
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  40. #23
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    And customers wonder why refrets cost what they do. I hope that everyone that needs a refret reads this. Good info.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  41. #24
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    There is some overreaction here, IMHO. Yes, the tiny chips are annoying, but keep in mind, depending on the width on the new fret installed -- many times -- most of the chips are hidden by the new fret. (remember the side-view of the fret is T-shaped) Especially, when installing larger size frets, which many of us do on the refret. That being said, yes heat the fret and be as slow and careful as you can when removing it to keep the damage to a minimum. Yes, I'm for any gadget that does a better job. Not to mention planing and sanding of the fretboard before refretting, which would make the chips a non-issue, right? Ya gotta think the repair through before you start.
    You are forgetting that instrument undergoes multiple refrets over years and if each lutier thiks like you stated after fourth-fifth refret there would be chipped edge all along the fret slot making even seating of frets hard. These damages are cumulative.
    I don't want the next guy to curse on my work so I try to glue back ALL tiny chips immediately as they appear and fill any missing after init. I run a tiny bead of thin CA along both sides of slot (not inside, but on top of board) so even the fuzzy edges of the "zipper" created by the studs after extraction of fret will solidify and when the board is sanded and edges of slots slightly chamfered the board looks just like new.
    Adrian

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  43. #25
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing frets without damaging fretboard

    It would be nice if the various manufacturers,especially the companies such as Eastman / Michael Kelly /Kentucky etc., actually stated the way in which their instrument frets are fitted ie.''pressed in or glued''. It's possible that many folk know that info.,but for the uninformed - could somebody with the knowlege please share it ?. I contacted Bruce Weber shortly after i bought my "Fern" for some general info.,& Bruce told me that the Weber mandolins (when he was building them), had pressed in frets. I assume that The Two Old Hippies 'Webers' are the same - are they ?.

    At least if somebody knows how their mandolin frets have been fitted,then the guy doing the re-fret is in with a chance,
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