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Thread: Help identifying an antique shop find

  1. #1

    Default Help identifying an antique shop find

    Hi everyone,
    I was at an antiques shop the other day and found a beautiful bowl back mandolin, I can't find anything on it to determine its make, just wondering if anyone has any idea about it.
    I'm a complete beginner to mandolins, I've just started learning to play.
    Any help identifying it would be much appreciated!

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/159255835@N08/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    My (far-from-expert) first impression is that it's in too good condition to be really old, but there is pick-wear around the soundhole, and enough grain showing thru the finish, maybe, to be as old as it seems (meaning that it's not a modern high-tech, high-gloss finish). Cosmetically, it's really pretty!

    OTOH, photos of the top alone may not tell the experts a lot, as some designs did get copied over the decades. What can be definitive are photos of:
    - the back, showing the approx. number of "barrel staves" (probably between 7 and the mid-30s);
    - any markings or label on the outside & inside;
    - headstock front and back views including tuning gears;
    - straight-on side view that shows how high the strings are above the body AND if there is curvature of the neck;
    - the tailpeice, where the strings are attached.

    With that info, some folks here can tell pretty much when and where it was made.

    BUT looking again more closely:
    - the strings seem to be very clean and very new;
    - the strings seem to be a bit higher above the fretboard than is preferable;
    - the string slots in the bridge seem to have been filed lower than is perferable.

    It has probably been re-strung it with modern strings of "average" gauge, which is too much tension for most bowl-backs - it may be slowly collapsing in on itself. I'd loosen the tension (don't loose the bridge, which could fall off; it should not be glued on!) and maybe have a music shop replace with super-light gauge strings.

    Warning: Most music shops know little about mandolins, less about bowlbacks, and might be happy to sell you the same strings that you have! Offhand, I don't have a recommendation on string sets, but others here do, so hopefully they'll chime in. My own bowlback actually uses two sets of tenor banjo strings, being .008 thru .028 inches, I think, the lightest I've heard of. Average modern strings are around .011 thru .040 or so, what you may have now.
    - Ed

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    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    would there be markings inside the top? you may need a mirror.. I sure like that pickguard.. that looks nice..

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Quote Originally Posted by EdHanrahan View Post
    - the strings seem to be a bit higher above the fretboard than is preferable;
    - the string slots in the bridge seem to have been filed lower than is perferable.

    It has probably been re-strung it with modern strings of "average" gauge, which is too much tension for most bowl-backs - it may be slowly collapsing in on itself. I'd loosen the tension (don't loose the bridge, which could fall off; it should not be glued on!) and maybe have a music shop replace with super-light gauge strings.
    The bridge looks like it may have some room to be lowered.

    Definitely make sure the strings are very light gauge.

  6. #5
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Local record

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  7. #6

    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Hi guys,
    Thanks for your replies and great info. I'm planning on taking it to a local luthier so hopefully it should be sorted out and ready to play soonish. I'll loosen the strings a bit now. I've added some more photos, I can't see any mark on it anywhere even looking with a mirror at the inside.
    I think it's stunning anyway but id love to know more about it, hope the pics are a bit more useful this time!

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/159255835@N08/?

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    1. Action is 'way too high. I'm not excited about that neck angle.

    2. One set of your tuners has been replaced, so you have four "worm over" and four "worm under" tuning pegs. Not a catastrophe, but you might want to consider "standardizing."

    3. That tailpiece, with only four posts to hold the eight strings, tickles my memory a bit, but I can't think of what I read, about that being a characteristic of certain Italian builders.

    4. The body binding, with the very distinct alternating black and white, and the butterfly-engraved pickguard, also suggest European build to me. But I'm ready to be sternly corrected by the real bowl-back experts.
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    It's very reminiscent of a "Silvestri" I've had hanging in the wall for many years. That doesn't have a label either but an impressed "brand" on the top. They were made in Catania (Sicily) and yours looks to be slightly newer than mine.

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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Am I crazy, or does the area right above the nut look like it was heavily worked on . . . like, perhaps the headstock was snapped-off and re-attached?

    Otherwise, very cool piece. Enjoy!

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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeZito View Post
    Am I crazy, or does the area right above the nut look like it was heavily worked on . . . like, perhaps the headstock was snapped-off and re-attached?

    Otherwise, very cool piece. Enjoy!
    Not crazy -- if you enlarge the picture of the back of the peghead, it's a clear break, and it looks to be vertically through the neck. Also, the front of the peghead looks like it has a long crack.

    If they just glued the end grain back together, and it has held up for any time at all, I'd be impressed!

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Ray is right: this is certainly Italian made, and likely Sicilian, probably Catanese.

    Allen is right: get the tuners matched up. Tuning that will drive a person crazy.

    Ed is right: the neck is way out of wack, possibly from heavier-than-desired string sizes, possibly because these are very lightly built.

    David is right: You may be able to lower the bridge enough to get it (sort of playable). Maybe.

    Mike and Drew are right: Get you repairperson to take a look at that crack.

    David is right: Extra light gauge strings! The GHS ultra lights: .09-.38 are cheap and readily available.

    Ed is right: This is as old as it looks. Likely 1900-1910 era. Maybe a couple years either way.


    Hopefully you can get it playable. If the action is too high it is going to make learning harder. The neck looks muy sketchioso.

    Good luck!

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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    The neck on mine; actually my first mandolin, also needed attention. The action was way too high and the bridge way too low. I had a new wedge shaped fingerboard fitted which solved the problem. I don't think the job cost too much but it was 40+ years ago and nothing cost that much in those days!

    Now for the clincher; don't worry about the wierd crack/join at the headstock/neck junction. Mine is exactly the same. Looks to me that they were made that way.

  16. #13

    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    The tuners which are mis-matched units are both German made which immediately tells you it is European. The butterfly motif was found on many instruments made in Catania, Sicily- although it is probably a generic Italian thing as well. So, it's almost certainly from Naples or Catania. Here is an Ermelinda Silvestri:

    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...5-a5a00095e799

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    Registered User tonydxn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help identifying an antique shop find

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Streip View Post
    Not crazy -- if you enlarge the picture of the back of the peghead, it's a clear break, and it looks to be vertically through the neck. Also, the front of the peghead looks like it has a long crack.

    If they just glued the end grain back together, and it has held up for any time at all, I'd be impressed!
    It's important to understand how Italian mandolins were made. Typically, the head and neck are a single piece, made from pine. They are veneered with rosewood. What you are seeing is not a vertical break with glued end grain, it is just the join in the veneer. Similarly, what looks like a crack in the head is only a crack where the veneer has shrunk (or been gouged). If you look at the corners of the head (back and front) you can see where the veneer has chipped off, revealing the pine underneath.

    The action is much too high, as others have said. Part of that is due to the neck/body join giving a bit, but most of it is the result of the soundboard lifting. Years of tension from too-heavy strings pulling on the soundboard cause it to lift at the cant. If you look at the ends of the bridge, they are no longer sitting snug on the soundboard. It could be that the bridge is not the original one, or the soundboard has lifted, giving it more of a curve than it used to have (or both, of course).

    The bridge is quite high, so a lower one would get the action down quite a lot, but probably not enough. A new fingerboard tapered in thickness from the nut to the soundhole would complete the job. All that will cost more than the mandolin is worth if paying a repair person to do the work.

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