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Thread: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

  1. #26

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    I have decided to do the repair myself. This does not look particularly difficult, as long as I clamp it properly.

    The previous luthier on the original repair wrote me back and said he used Tite Bond. He also said mandos have a lot more string tension that guitars. Jerry Rosa also was kind enough to write back after I sent him some photos. He recommended Tite Bond as well, but this makes me nervous since the previous repair -- done by a very well reputed luthier, by the way, although not a mando specialist -- failed in less than a year. I'd much rather have an ugly repair that will last the life of the instrument vs a pretty one that gives way in less than a year or two.

    thanks again,
    M & M

  2. #27

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    BTW, since I've decided to do this myself, I will probably ask some stupid questions to help me understand the process.

    Question #1: How do I prevent glue getting on the truss rod? Does a rod like this come completely out? If so, I thought about putting a soda pop straw with the approximate same diameter as the truss rod. Am I smoking something funny?

    M & M

  3. #28

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Bernie, PM sent. In fact I think I accidentally sent it twice.

    Thanks!
    M&M

  4. #29
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando&Me View Post
    Don, thank you. I'm much more interested in the very strongest bond so this doesn't happen again. Cosmetics don't matter much to me in this case. I typically don't play mando onstage, only guitar, so this is for mainly jamming with friends.

    To reiterate: If gray epoxy will give me the strongest bond, that's the way I wanna go.

    Marine epoxy makes sense to me, as I imagine it has some flex to it vs just being rigid and hard and prone to separation.

    Thanks again,
    M & M
    Don't forget, glue selection is just one small factor of succesful joint.
    Imagine the sandwich of wood - layer of glue - wood. The surfaces of wood must be prepared to accept glue and glue applied in prescribed manner. Then the joint should be clamped and held at correct temperature/pressure so the layer of glue reaches it's best properties. If there is old glue you will need to clean it otherwise your sandwich has two layers of "dirt" between the wood and new glue. You don't want to remove any wood along with the old residue as most glues don't fill well (except epoxy) and quickly lose strength with thickness of glue layer. Even the strongest epoxy in the world will be greatly compromised if it is applied over dirty surface - in such case you are gluing two layers of old glue together and the physical joint is dependent on how well the residue holds on the original wood surfaces and how well the epoxy holds on the residue. So you have four potential points of failure.
    Redoing repair is tricky and if you want it to hold you need to clean the surfaces and prepare for good joint. If someone used Titebond and the joint failed, I would call it goner as well because proper repair of that would involve much more work than just applying some glue and clamping and thus would likely cost more than the instrument is worth. Other factor is that I would warn the owner that there is no warranty that it will hold long term anyway, you just don't know what is in there. I would likely refuse the repair as well, as if it fails in the future I would be the guy to blame...
    If I were sure the reapir was done with HHG, I would just clean it with water and glue it as usual. (like when my friend dropped his guitar second time few months after I reglued his broken headstock with HHG).
    In this case I would consider backstrap overlay no matter what glue is to be used as it will add tremendous strength where it is needed to wood with such grain and weakened by the break.
    For me first thing to do would be identification of glue used before and cleaning residue.
    Adrian

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  6. #30
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Yes, you want to mask off the truss rod. Yes, you need your surfaces as clean surfaces as possible. Yes, reinforce with a backstrap. I would go with a fresh peghead overlay also.

    Since you have confirmed that the original repair was done with Titebond, and we will hope that it was done correctly, there is no reason to believe that re-doing it the same way will hold.

    If it came to my shop, I would:

    1. Clean the joint as best as I could without disrupting the fit. Titebond is soluble in water, also in denatured alcohol. You can't get all of the old glue out of there, but you can get rid of a lot of it.

    2. Glue and clamp. If the fit is good, I might use Titebond again. If the fit is not so good, I would use marine epoxy.

    3. Cut down 3/32" and inlay a veneer or backstrap the extends well past the break in either direction. I would use Titebond here. You will then need to restore the shape to the back of the neck and peghead.

    4. Measure the thickness of the old head overlay. Remove it, and reduce the thickness of the front of the peghead by 3/32" minus the thickness of the old overlay.

    5. Install a new overlay that is 3/32" thick. Titebond here, too. Ream out for the tuners and finish with the lacquer or varnish of your choice.

    If you follow this procedure, you will be making a sandwich around the break. The sandwich will provide a great deal of strength to the joint, taking much of the load off the break.

    A lot of trouble. But if you really want it to hold, it will probably work.

    Good luck. If it holds, you will have saved your mandolin. If it doesn't, you will have learned a lot about the craft. Then you can either graft on a new peghead [and you will now have experience with much of the technique necessary to do so], or re-neck the instrument.
    Last edited by rcc56; Sep-03-2018 at 5:11pm.

  7. #31
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    FYI: i did this repair three times twice with hard fish glue they each lasted about 6 months and finally with good old red label tite bond and it has lasted 2 years -- so far.

    Another fish glue failure . . .

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  9. #32

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Another fish glue failure . . .
    Why not contact Bouvier and get a reset neck?

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  11. #33
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Another fish glue failure . . .
    Yup I am guilty of extolling the merits of fish glue to others and even intemperately defending it against criticism in the past but I learned my lesson the hard way. That happens when you have a hard head.
    Bernie
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  13. #34
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Yup I am guilty of extolling the merits of fish glue to others and even intemperately defending it against criticism in the past but I learned my lesson the hard way. That happens when you have a hard head.
    I suppose I could thank you and the other poor folks who fell for the marketing push on fish glue for saving me from multiple unpaid hours of warranty work, but that would be heartless and insensitive. I'm sorry about all the people who got burned by using the stuff.

    But please remember, folks, especially those of you who are trying to learn about repair work from forums such as this:
    "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true."
    Cliché-- yes. But there's a lot of truth in clichés.

    Here's a future cliché: "There are no short cuts in lutherie."
    Not always 100% true, but true more often than not.

  14. #35
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    I think that the problem with fish glue is that it is very hygroscopic and melts easily. In both cases my neck repair failed in the summer during periods of high humidity. I think if you could seal the repair off or use it in a very dry climate it might work better -- but I no longer feel that its ease of handling/working time is worth the risk.
    Bernie
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Many others have reported the same. It might be a good glue if you and the instrument are going to spend your lives in the Northwest Territories.

    Bottom line: "The stuff ain't no good."
    Last edited by rcc56; Sep-03-2018 at 10:44pm.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    I suppose I could thank you and the other poor folks who fell for the marketing push on fish glue for saving me from multiple unpaid hours of warranty work, but that would be heartless and insensitive. I'm sorry about all the people who got burned by using the stuff.

    But please remember, folks, especially those of you who are trying to learn about repair work from forums such as this:
    "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true."
    Cliché-- yes. But there's a lot of truth in clichés.

    Here's a future cliché: "There are no short cuts in lutherie."
    Not always 100% true, but true more often than not.
    So, rcc, you would be in the marine epoxy camp then?

    Thanks,
    M&M

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    If there is a poor fit, missing wood, or contamination is deep, yes. The more I think about it, I would probably use it even if I thought the joint was clean, since it has already failed once.

    But again, I would use a backstrap and replace the peg head veneer with a thicker one on this repair no matter what glue I used. The strength will come mostly from the resulting sandwich. The glue used on the break will largely be there to hold things together while you make the sandwich.

    See my previous post, #30.
    Last edited by rcc56; Sep-03-2018 at 11:11pm.

  19. #39
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    If there is a poor fit, missing wood, or contamination is deep, yes. The more I think about it, I would probably use it even if I thought the joint was clean, since it has already failed once.

    But again, I would use a backstrap and replace the peg head veneer with a thicker one on this repair no matter what glue I used. The strength will come mostly from the resulting sandwich. The glue used on the break will largely be there to hold things together while you make the sandwich.

    See my previous post, #30.
    Problem is that many different things are called fish glue including ready-made bottled stuff. Good old fish glue from sturgeon (but not all species) bladders has been used for composite warbows that underwent extreme stresses and held for centuries if stored properly. These days the real stuff is almost impossible to get and other species my have different properties. ANother problem is that you have to cook it from raw bladders and overcooking will result in poor performance....
    I would stick with good old HHG which is preblem free (other than user error) and is less flexible and hygroscopic than other animal glues.
    Replacing the headstock overlay is not necessary at all. On these chinese mandolins the overlay is often just thin veneer on top and if binding is used it is routed down below the thickness of overlay.
    Adrian

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    I had forgotten, LMI carries an epoxy called “Smith Oak and Teak” that is formulated specifically for wood. They say it is especially effective on oily hardwoods. I know mahogany isn’t really that oily, but since this is specific for luthier use it might be a good choice. They are adamant that the break should not be cleaned with solvents first, or cleaned up with solvents, lest they migrate into the joint and cause failure. It has a thin consistency and is meant to soak into the wood as far as it will go. Go to the LMI site and check it out. NFI.
    Don

    2016 Weber Custom Bitterroot F
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  21. #41

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    I had forgotten, LMI carries an epoxy called “Smith Oak and Teak” that is formulated specifically for wood. They say it is especially effective on oily hardwoods. I know mahogany isn’t really that oily, but since this is specific for luthier use it might be a good choice. They are adamant that the break should not be cleaned with solvents first, or cleaned up with solvents, lest they migrate into the joint and cause failure. It has a thin consistency and is meant to soak into the wood as far as it will go. Go to the LMI site and check it out. NFI.
    Multi, thanks, I just bought a pickguard from LMI and really love doing business with them.

    Thank You,
    Scott

  22. #42

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Folks, a lot of people have mentioned the backstrap approach, which I think makes a lot sense in this instance.

    I had a repair on a guitar done this way, and it really held. I seem to recall it looked sorta like thin fiberglass once hardened.

    Could someone please enlighten me. What sort of material would I use for the backstrap and where might acquire what I need?

    Thanks Again,
    M&M

  23. #43
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Hard maple. Ebony if it's not too thin. Any other good hardwood that you can find that's nice looking, rigid, and not too brittle. Visit your friendly local cabinet maker. He's always got plenty of scraps. Recess your back strip deeply enough so it will be nice and thick, and extend it a good distance from the top and bottom extremes of the break. Make it nice and strong.

  24. #44
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando&Me View Post
    Folks, a lot of people have mentioned the backstrap approach, which I think makes a lot sense in this instance.

    I had a repair on a guitar done this way, and it really held. I seem to recall it looked sorta like thin fiberglass once hardened.

    Could someone please enlighten me. What sort of material would I use for the backstrap and where might acquire what I need?

    Thanks Again,
    M&M
    Study frets.com. You can see there are different glue choices depending on situation.
    I wanted to mention CA glue for reair of OP headstock, but some folks would frown upon that. I've used CA over contaminated surfaces with white glues (not filled with globs of glue, just hardly noticeable remains of thin glue layer) after cleaning with water and vinegar with success. In this case I would add backstrap to bridge the crossgrain break. I wouldn't do ful length overlay if it's not needed, just 2" long yapering on both ends. The large one is easier to hide and easy to do if you have Safety planer or similar for material remval and plan to refinish the headstock or whole neck.

    Here are some links:

    http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...phoverlay.html
    http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...28peghead.html
    http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...strapheat.html
    Adrian

  25. #45

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    rcc, thanks again.

    A lot of folks have suggested Marine Epoxy as opposed to regular Epoxy. It turns out Loctite now offers marine epoxy for less than $10.

    Why marine versus regular epoxy? Is regular epoxy too rigid whereas marine epoxy has a little give/flex to it?

    Thanks,
    M&M

  26. #46

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    I posted this in the glue thread, but thought others might have interest here as well. I don't know how long they've been doing it, but JB Weld now offers something called WoodWeld. Anyone use this stuff? I'm leaning more and more toward an epoxy solution on this break.

    Attachment 170834

  27. #47
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando&Me View Post
    I posted this in the glue thread, but thought others might have interest here as well. I don't know how long they've been doing it, but JB Weld now offers something called WoodWeld. Anyone use this stuff? I'm leaning more and more toward an epoxy solution on this break.

    Attachment 170834
    WoodWeld has roughly half the bonding strength of a good marine epoxy or of standard JB Weld. It may be enough, however since the 1st repair was a bust and you'll likely not be able to remove all of the previous adhesive, I'd go with as strong an epoxy as you can find. Also, the shorter the cure time, the more brittle the epoxy will be over time. Woodweld is 3 hour, JBWeld & most good marine epoxy is 24 hour. One note, some marine epoxies dry white, some clear (or clear-ish anyway)

  28. #48

    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_al View Post
    WoodWeld has roughly half the bonding strength of a good marine epoxy or of standard JB Weld. It may be enough, however since the 1st repair was a bust and you'll likely not be able to remove all of the previous adhesive, I'd go with as strong an epoxy as you can find. Also, the shorter the cure time, the more brittle the epoxy will be over time. Woodweld is 3 hour, JBWeld & most good marine epoxy is 24 hour. One note, some marine epoxies dry white, some clear (or clear-ish anyway)
    Yes, thanks, that's my plan -- to go with the strongest epoxy I can get my hands on. Although many have recommended the addition of a back strap, this is above my current expertise and I may just go with the epoxy and take my chances.

    thanks, al,
    M&M

  29. #49
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    More creative home shop options:
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  31. #50
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandcanyonminstrel View Post
    More creative home shop options:
    Wow, basses ace common victims of such things but that Frankenguitar is just whole another level! LOL
    Adrian

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