considering an oval hole mandolin

[RobP]

Dan is sounds like you some money to spend. And, it sounds like you have a good idea of what you are looking for, and NOT looking for. As several have suggested in other threads, it might be well worth it for you to make a couple of trips to mandolin meccas so you can play a bunch. Could be a fun adventure.

Good Luck

Rob

[pops1]

My '22 A2 has a great warm sound, not tubby in the least, just deep. It has 1 1/4" nut, paddle head, truss rod and great warm sound with plenty of power. I would not give up on the old Gibson's either, unless as I think I remember, you want a longer neck.

[Bob A]

Have you considered a Lyon & Healy/Washburn?

My Style A is a sweet instrument, with less bass than the Gibsons, but a treble that approaches the bright sparkle of a good Italian bowlback.

I'm in MD just north of DC should you want a taste of L&H.

[dan in va]

Br1ck, SA's small ff can give a tone somewhere in between the standard ff and oval hole. And if the 'net recordings are true, some of the SA ff's are really open and loose with overtones all over the place that my ears long to hear. It's also my assessment that the modern offerings (excepting Black) are quite different in tone from the old time Gibson oval tone, and if the tubby tone is what you want then go for it. When i bought the '25 snakehead from Charles Johnson, i played a dozen or so ovals and there was a lot of variation. But if'n it was me and wanted that tone then Black would be at the top of my list to avoid the common Gibson issues, like vintage seam separation.
CA - Thanks for the Northfield suggestion. Very nice looking things, but i'm not looking at Pacrim offerings for a multitude of reasons.
HH - Good to hear from you. i'm not going to overlook Weber for sure, but i do strongly prefer dovetail neck joints, which i hear they're doing now.
VA - Glad to know the PS is working for you. It's a different vibe than i'm looking for though.
Don G - Happy you're weighing in with your experience. Pomeroy does look good. How do you like the Girouard two point?
mug - Nice looking Weber in your avitar. i appreciate your offer and will keep it in mind.
MS - i hear you on the Collings and Black. He seems to really nail that niche.
soliver - That Lebeda is a looker and got my attention...but sadly it's a mandola.
ph - Old Wave is one i would consider if it had the right tone. Virzi's are cool, but not my brand of Kool-Aid.
geoffa - Yes, the Black does seem to have that snakehead sound in spades, but i've been there and done that with Gibson. i respect what he's doing for sure.
AM - Good looking two point. Thanks for sharing.
Paul R - That looks like a great mandolin and i've listened to that sound clip many, many times. But there's so much echo in that recording that i can't hear all of what i want.
UP - i haven't played an A2Z, and maybe it's the real deal, but more coin than i'd like and it's too vintage to modify.
RobP - i appreciate your taking the time to share your good advice. And you're most likely right on the road trips being the best way to shop.
pops1 - always good to hear from you. Glad you have a good one, and yes, i prefer the longer narrower neck.
Bob A - i've only heard one L&H and it was too long ago and before my ear went to tone school. They may have more brightness than i think i want. But sometimes one incredible mando comes along that changes my mind. Thanks for the thought and offer.

[Don Grieser]

I loved my Girouard oval, but after a while, I found myself picking up the f hole mandolins more often than the oval. Max ended up selling it for me. It was a spectacular looking and sounding instrument--not sure why I didn't bond with it. Guess I'm just an A5 guy, not an oval guy.

[yankees1]

I loved my Girouard oval, but after a while, I found myself picking up the f hole mandolins more often than the oval. Max ended up selling it for me. It was a spectacular looking and sounding instrument--not sure why I didn't bond with it. Guess I'm just an A5 guy, not an oval guy.

If you mainly play Bluegrass I can understand why you departed with the oval but I usually play my Girouard oval with Scottish/Irish tunes and old time tunes. When I do play Bluegrass I play my Ellis F5 and A5. I like to switch around playing my different mandolins as it motivates me more for some reason. Mandolin Polygamy I guess !

[pops1]

Dan, You are facing a hard decision, and while I love the sound of the Gibson, the short neck is not what I am needing these days, so I understand wanting the longer neck. I have spent the last couple of years thinking of an oval hole long neck. Just recently I played my Gibson, and my Martin and finally decided I like the ff holed mandolins I have so am more content these days. Looking for the right oval is not an easy task and as I age I am finding I like the sound of the ff hole, not that I don't like the oval, but don't seem to play them much, and when I do they don't blow my dress up anymore, as a friend used to say. Wishing you luck on finding what you are looking for. I am in a barren wilderness for trying mandolins so I know how hard it is to find something you like the sound of without serious travel or recordings, which can be deceiving. Let us know what you decide to get, maybe I will change my mind.

[Charles E.]

Good luck with your search Dan. It sounds like you have a particular tone in mind and with the requirement of a 1-1/16" nut width it will make your search more difficult. It's going to be one of those "I'll know it when I play it" sort of deals.

take care.

[mandroid]

Liked my 1922 A4 enough to need a refret..

[darylcrisp]

Dan,
here are parts of my past that involve a search of my own into something with an oval type hole. from the start I was never searching for the old Gibson oval hole tone. I wanted something more "modern", sweet, rounded notes. My first adventure was a Collings MTO. beautiful instrument, but I found the 1 3/16" nut width, string spacing, neck profile thickness tiresome after short playing times. I also did not care for what I heard-I was looking more for more mellow, more round notes-especially A and E strings.

I did find the Northfield oval hole F model to be more my preference in tone-but 3 of these escaped me and would always be purchased by someone else while I was in thought on the matter. If you can find one of these, I highly recommend you take a listen/chance as this model immediately came to mind as I read your OP.

I know you mentioned pacrim not being a consideration, but still, I really think one of these would check all your boxes. the 1 1/8" nut width these come in also feel smaller-more along the lines of what might feel like a 1 1/16" for you. many folks who own one of these mention this very fact-the nut width feeling smaller than it physically is. the folks at Cotton Music in Tn love this model NF-the owners have a personal one. there might be some soundclips for the ones they've sold-very sweet, bell quality tone. the 3 NF F models I have owned have been nothing but top shelf instruments in every area.

if you can find a Girouard oval hole, every one I've heard is excellent-I think some folks on the Café have two of these coming soon, and Max could easily adapt the neck size to fit-so maybe some soundclips from the folks with them would help you out in that choice.

something else that might be of interest that I just recently captured, and very reasonably at $1085 plus $35 shipping from elderlys, an older Weber Aspen. below is the link to my purchase. from moment I touched this thing I just knew it was special, and it really is. much louder than I ever would have expected, intonates really nice, plays extremely easy, its like holding a well made jewel-truly, its light but solid built, and mine came with a flat fretboard and 1 3/32" nut width. its extremely easy to play and fret. in my past I typically wanted 1 3/16" nut widths and wide string spacing due to coming from a fingerstyle guitar background, but over time and I assume improvement in technical skill, I've found the wider nut widths and thicker necks tiresome while playing. I have come to 1 1/8" as my standard now, always "thought" I needed a radius fretboard and "thought" I preferred that, but having this Aspen has shown me I can play this smaller width very easily and the flat fretboard presents no issues for me. live and learn.

so I highly endorse the possibility of the Aspen meeting your desires as well.

good luck in the search.

Aspen thread:
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...pen-2-uh-oh-my

[dan in va]

Don, i can understand your journey. The 2 point was easy on the eyes, but my ears really like the Heiden most, even tho it's a more modern sound.

y1 - You have a good arsenal with a fine mandolin for each type of music you plan.

pops1 - i've gotten hooked on the long neck also. It would be nice if the Martin A had that kind of neck. But the ff seem to have more dynamics and volume than most of the oval carved tops. i too found it easier to get the right ff than oval, and there aren't any stores that have good mandolins around here either. But I'm not going to settle for anything that is easy to put back in the case. Will let you know if something turns up. Thanks for your interest.

CE - You may be right that my neck requirements may make it darn near impossible to get everything i want in an oval hole. And while i know what i'm looking for, there may be something lurking out there that may be different but equally wonderful in another way. An example is the Stanley A5 that i've bonded with and have no desire for another ff mandolin, but a local picker has a Heiden F5 that is truly wonderful but different...and i could easily get used to it if something happened to the Stanley and had the scratch to spare.

Mandroid - Glad to know your A4 is the real deal for you. It would be easier if The Gibson worked for me also.

daryl - i don't doubt that Northfield is making some good stuff; it sure looks great and sounds really good on the 'net. Their pacrim wares cost more than i'm interested in paying for them, and they are turning out some real lookers in MI now also. And there are some 1 1/8" necks that are shaped to feel smaller for sure. Interesting about the Aspen - guess you get a good one wherever you find it.

[rnjl]

No idea if he's still building or how long it will take but I have a wonderful Will Parsons oval hole that has a long (compared to old Gibsons) big fat round neck like my old Flatiron (meaning, he can shape the neck as you like) and a really nice old woody tone. Plus modern features like radius fretboard an a Weber tailpiece. He should be findable with some looking.

[dan in va]

rnjl - Thanks for the heads up on the Parsons. i'm not familiar with that builder but i'm looking for something other than the Gibson sound.

So the sound i'm looking for would be warm and resonant, responsive, open with lots of overtones, relaxed (not tight) sounding E and A strings, good volume - even across the strings and up and down the whole neck. i'm reluctant to trust the internet sound clips, but the ones that grab my ears the most are Silver Angel, but it would be an oval. Now i haven't heard a SA oval, but the ff is getting close to "the tone" and the oval should likely do it. It seems there have been some SA's that have been retopped, but Ken says just a few. Still digging for more info, like type of neck joint and if a winter build would be under drier humidity conditions. It would suit me that SA's aren't perfect looking.

Even tho very different, the Ellis oval is a somewhat distant second, but about twice as spendy and very pretty...this would be something that would get distressed. i haven't made a decision yet and something else could come along and change my mind completely. Heck, the good folks on the Cafe are a big influence. And i appreciate it a whole big bunch.

[Charles E.]

(quote) CE - You may be right that my neck requirements may make it darn near impossible to get everything i want in an oval hole. And while i know what i'm looking for, there may be something lurking out there that may be different but equally wonderful in another way. An example is the Stanley A5 that i've bonded with and have no desire for another ff mandolin, but a local picker has a Heiden F5 that is truly wonderful but different...and i could easily get used to it if something happened to the Stanley and had the scratch to spare. (quote)

Dan, the best sounding mandolin I have ever played was a Heiden, it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. It was a few years ago at Rockbridge, in your neck of the woods. There was a quirky guy in an old subaru that had a collection of mandolins, including a Gilchrist, Montelone, Gibsons and the Heidon blew them all away.

[Potosimando]

Re. Charles E comments above: I have been fortunate in having had several really nice mandolins over the years, including two Heiden f-hole A mandolins and several Gilchrist mandolins. I agree with Charles E, in that the Heidens were easily as nice of mandolins (tone-wise and playability-wise) as any I have owned or played. I recently decided to "scale down" and passed along both Heiden f-holes, only because they were so darn easy to sell (I kept one Gil and have another for sale). At present I do have a Heiden oval-hole A (short neck), and it is really something--extremely warm, sweet, and resonant...and relatively loud and even, from top to bottom. I couldn't be happier with the Heiden being my primary oval-hole mandolin, although if I had to choose between having an oval-hole and an f-hole mandolin (Heaven forbid such a decision), I would probably choose the f-hole mandolin.


A few weeks after I purchased the oval-hole from Michael Heiden, he asked me if I would prefer having a short-neck or long-neck mandolin, saying then that he was perfectly happy to make either in the future, and simply wanting my long-vs-short opinion after my having had the short-neck in-hand for a while. I told him that given the instrument's exquisite tone, I wouldn't change anything, and couldn't imagine an oval-hole sounding much better than my short-neck Heiden; but who knows, maybe a long-neck would sound as-good or even better. It doesn't take long to adjust to a short neck, if that's a concern. The Heiden oval was relatively expensive.

Dan, you might also want to check out Peter Coombe, who does a lot of experimenting with woods (and some on neck lengths) related entirely to tone...and much more experimenting with oval-hole mandolins than with f-hole mandolins and guitars. Peter is all about tone as you will see if you visit his fascinating web site. I have owned three Coombe mandolins over the years, and all had very nice tone and good "playability".

[thecelloronin]

My contribution may be worth relatively little to this discussion as it pertains specifically to the comparative virtues of various oval-holed mandolins, but I have nothing but praise for Don Paine of Pomeroy Instruments. He built me a customized ff-hole mandocello, and I couldn't be more pleased with the results. This is one of the finest instruments I'll ever own on construction and looks alone, and the sound more than matches that esteem.

Fun fact, the scroll on that V-style oval hole is the prototype to the one on my mandocello. Can you see the family resemblance?



I can't remember if he left that neck "naked" ie no finish or not, but maybe he'd be willing to reshape it to fit your hand if you weren't pleased with it?

[dan in va]

Charley - Thank you for sharing your insightful experience with those top brands. Lexington is some 60 min from where i live now, and 30 min from my hometown of Staunton. The Schofield mandolins are highley respected in that area. Heiden seems to be at least as good as any top mandolin ever; they play extremely well, and the stain has that 3D effect where you can look down into the wood. i played a fine sounding Loar w/Virzi a couple of years ago. The Heiden had everything that fern did and then some in tone, and Michael's workmanship is second to none.

There's good reason for some humility about my playing, and i'm unsettled about dumping a boat load of money into an oval hole that will play second fiddle to the Stanley anyhow. It's okay the top shelf instruments are a bit out of reach. As great as these are, the oval i'd want needs to sound a good bit more different than they do, so their sound isn't really what i want, even tho' they are truly great. But then again i'm going on minimal real pick experience and am maybe believing too much of what i'm heariing on the internet.

Poto - Good Heiden info and story. i'm not surprised that he built a truly stellar oval mandolin for you. i spent a fair amount of time on the Coombe website and his work seems to be all you say it is, and verified in the wood with your 3. It would be a big plus if he didn't live on the other side of the world. Your experience is exactly the kind of stuff that helps me.

thecel - Actually, your post is another excellent contribution to this thread and my education. Don Grieser suggested Pomeroy to me also, and that means something. Getting more aquainted with Don's work is very helpful, and i would do well to pay attention. The L&H inspired model he makes is incredible, and i think his peghead scroll is an improvement on the original design and the most graceful i've seen. A great mandocello is a tall order and it's more than noteworthy that he rose to the occasion - not every luthier has done that. i'm sure he could do any kind of neck that i wanted.

Cafe menbers, i want you to know that your postings are a huge help to me, and most of the stuff you've written about is info that i would not have found on my own....just excellent.

[CHASAX]

Bought a Weber F14-0 less than an hour ago through Reverb.
Sold my Weber A oval Vintage and missed it.
Risky buying something I have not held and heard, but it will probably be worth it.
My ears like the sound from oval mandos. I play folk, irish, and taking a class in classical starting next month.

[Lou Giordano]

Bought a Weber F14-0 less than an hour ago through Reverb.
Sold my Weber A oval Vintage and missed it.
Risky buying something I have not held and heard, but it will probably be worth it.
My ears like the sound from oval mandos. I play folk, irish, and taking a class in classical starting next month.

Best of luck with that. I bought just about the same one last week. It's my first oval

[dan in va]

CHASAX and Lou - i'm quite interested in hearing how you both like the Weber ovals. i've been listening to them on youtube and they sound and look good.

i finally stumbled onto a couple of SA ovals being played on youtube, and they both seemed to have the sound i suspected. Ken says he has only made 4 ovals so far, so it's fortunate to hear one of each. The SA's seem to be pretty consistent and have their own signature tone, and these 2 are very close in sound.

We live in a great time with so much good stuff being made, but it makes choices mire difficult.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

No love here for Collings ovals. I own Mike Black #27 and have played several of his mandolins and octaves. Beautiful builds without the sterile look of..............not going to bash them again. Full sound of ancient snakeheads by a builder who really cares.

Why not bash them?

[thecelloronin]

thecel - Actually, your post is another excellent contribution to this thread and my education. Don Grieser suggested Pomeroy to me also, and that means something. Getting more aquainted with Don's work is very helpful, and i would do well to pay attention. The L&H inspired model he makes is incredible, and i think his peghead scroll is an improvement on the original design and the most graceful i've seen. A great mandocello is a tall order and it's more than noteworthy that he rose to the occasion - not every luthier has done that. i'm sure he could do any kind of neck that i wanted.

Not only did he rise to the occasion of building a mandocello, he was able to balance a 5th course of e strings on top, while deviating from the Monteleone mould of oval hole/x-brace to great result. One of the things that sold me on Don over the competition is his finishing skills. He's reputed to have some of the finest results in nitro around. I myself went varnish to mimic the violin-building tradition, and I have to say I'm thoroughly pleased. And, I agree that his scroll is a far more elegant take on L&H.

If you're interested in his methods, give him a call sometime! Easy guy to talk to, very low-pressure.

NFI here, just extremely enthused with my new m'cello.

[yankees1]

As far as workmanship, beauty , price and oval sound I would give a Girouard a serious look ! Fantastic people to work with also.

[rnjl]

Just to clarify my post about my Will Parsons oval, it's got a great woody, old-Gibson-ish sound because that's what I asked for. Will and I spoke at length about what I was looking for and he dialed it in. There's not a doubt in my mind that he can build a long-neck oval with the sound you're looking for, the problem is he's not always easily reachable and sometimes things take longer than expected. But people love his mandolins and used ones tend to go quickly, in my experience. I've owned two Parsons and deeply regret selling the one I did. Live and learn.

[CHASAX]

Have dealt with Paine of Pomeroy. Excellent