Chopping to a metronome

[jaybp30]

Any suggestions on how to work on being able to hit those upbeats at faster tempos. I really think it's just a feel thing that hopefully I can develop over time. Some people say feel and timing are just things you have or don't. I've played drums a lot longer than mandolin and always had issues with that classic country beat with accents on the upbeats at higher tempos. The funny thing is I can pick a melody much faster than I can chop. I can chop along to a song OK up to about 145 but can't do it to a metronome that fast. I think it's more the left hand's issue than the right. I know drumming I am 1000X stronger with the right and when I start moving chords on the mandolin I fall apart pretty quick. Any tips other than keep working your way up (or give up you just don't have it-not going to take that route).

[SincereCorgi]

You might already be doing this, but it helps a lot to 'ghost' on the downbeat to keep it steady. If moving chords is tripping you up, it's probably worth seeing if the real problem is with your left hand.

[bigskygirl]

Slow way down and do a boom-chuck until you get it

[UsuallyPickin]

I expect that you will get it, left hand right hand co-ordination takes time, ha, to develop. Your 145 bpm will gradually increase. A loose wrist and fingers are necessary... keep in mind if you don't drop the pick occasionally you are gripping it too tightly. Tension is the enemy both long and short term. Use chord forms on the lower three strings for the faster rhythm work and play with the forms that require less hand movement, shifting, to reach. Play on! R/

[Mandoplumb]

Watch those crutches. Get the off beat in your head however you can, but work towards just doing it. A ghost strum on the beat and a true strum on the off beat requires twice the motion. That can work against you in a fast song. Loose the crutch as sone as you can.

[jaybp30]

Yeah I do "ghost" the down beats. It's really when it gets too fast to do that that things derail, usually around 145bpm. Starting this morning I tap my lap or steering wheel on the upbeats of whatever song I'm playing. Figure it could only help. I've played drums for a long time but never really took it seriously, I've just kind of slowly developed over the last 25 years (now 37). BUt it's funny how I've actually been putting effort into the mandolin. Drums take up too much room anyway. Every gig I played I would joke I want to be a flutist in my next life but mandolin isn't a whole lot harder to carry around.

[Beanzy]

I agree with Mandoplumb, watch out with moving on the ghost beats, you end up having to generate twice as many muscle twitches as you would otherwise do if not moving on the beat too. I found I got much more precice and much quicker once I just focussed on the off-beat.

[Jim Broyles]

Watch videos of Bill Monroe. He is clearly chopping a lot of the time but his right hand moves in 8/8 A LOT of the time when you can only hear the chop on the back beats. I disagree that this so-called "ghosting" is a crutch. Do it if it helps.

[Mandoplumb]

Watch videos of Bill Monroe. He is clearly chopping a lot of the time but his right hand moves in 8/8 A LOT of the time when you can only hear the chop on the back beats. I disagree that this so-called "ghosting" is a crutch. Do it if it helps.

I did not say don't do it, if you break your leg you use a crutch until you no longer need it. It would be a shame to learn to depend on it and have to use it for the rest of your life. Regardless of who uses the ghost strokes it is a waste of motion and in my opinion you are better off getting in your head the sound of chopping on the off beat and not using a ghost stroke.

[onassis]

Yes, if it helps, roll with it. But once you have it down, straight chopping can be almost effortless at just about any pace.

[Jim Broyles]

What I'm saying is that it isn't a crutch, it's a technique. I would recommend doing it and perfecting the skill of only chopping on the back beats even when your hand is moving in 8/8 time.

[Mark Wilson]

What I'm saying is that it isn't a crutch, it's a technique. I would recommend doing it and perfecting the skill of only chopping on the back beats even when your hand is moving in 8/8 time.

Yep.

[ralph johansson]

Any suggestions on how to work on being able to hit those upbeats at faster tempos. I really think it's just a feel thing that hopefully I can develop over time. Some people say feel and timing are just things you have or don't. I've played drums a lot longer than mandolin and always had issues with that classic country beat with accents on the upbeats at higher tempos. The funny thing is I can pick a melody much faster than I can chop. I can chop along to a song OK up to about 145 but can't do it to a metronome that fast. I think it's more the left hand's issue than the right. I know drumming I am 1000X stronger with the right and when I start moving chords on the mandolin I fall apart pretty quick. Any tips other than keep working your way up (or give up you just don't have it-not going to take that route).

145 what? You can't specify the tempo by just giving the bpm, you've got to give the time signature as well. 145 bpm in 4/4 time is moderately fast, just a bit over medium (120); 145 in 2/2 is twice as fast (I resist going beyond 120 in 2/2 - frankly most players freeze up rhythmically beyond that).

[ralph johansson]

What I'm saying is that it isn't a crutch, it's a technique. I would recommend doing it and perfecting the skill of only chopping on the back beats even when your hand is moving in 8/8 time.

I would go farther than that; to me rhythm mandolin in BG allows all kinds of figures accenting the off-beat. What fits will mainly depend on the bass and guitar. They lay the foundation, the mandolin comes on top of that. You got to feel the whole of it and find your place in it.

[MediumMando5722]

145 what? You can't specify the tempo by just giving the bpm, you've got to give the time signature as well. 145 bpm in 4/4 time is moderately fast, just a bit over medium (120); 145 in 2/2 is twice as fast (I resist going beyond 120 in 2/2 - frankly most players freeze up rhythmically beyond that).

What are you guys playing that is 2/2 or 8/8?

120 bpm is 120 beats per minute regardless of the time signature. Time signatures show how many beats each measure is divided into, has nothing to do with speed.

[Mark Wilson]

He may have meant 2/4 (or not) but correct that 100 in BG cut time is exactly twice as fast as 100 in 4/4.

[jaybp30]

Yeah it's 145 in 4/4, not cut time (2/2). For instance, I can almost keep up with Del's All Aboard but can't come close to the Osborne Bros' Rocky Top.

[ralph johansson]

What are you guys playing that is 2/2 or 8/8?

120 bpm is 120 beats per minute regardless of the time signature. Time signatures show how many beats each measure is divided into, has nothing to do with speed.

What I said, and illustrated by example, is that bpm alone does not determine the tempo, you got to give the time signature as well. That is not the same as saying that time signature alone determines the tempo.

Most BG is really in 2/2. That's why we speak of chopping on the and's, the up's, or the offbeat. Some people think of it as 4/4 and chopping on the 2 and 4. 4/4 means twice as many beats per bar as 2/2; hence 145 bpm counting four to the bar amounts to 72.5 counting two.

[ralph johansson]

He may have meant 2/4 (or not) but correct that 100 in BG cut time is exactly twice as fast as 100 in 4/4.

The difference between 2/2 and 2/4 is largely notational, but also in part guided by convention. Scot Joplin's rags are notated in 2/4, but you could just as well notate them in 2/2, fourth notes instead of eights, eight notes instead of sixteenths, etc., thereby saving flags. In march music 2/4 often really means half a bar of 4/4 -- two bars of 2/4 amount to one of 4/4 with equal stress on the 1 and 3. In genres that sometimes switch between two and four (as on many of Monroe's early recordings, and 50's jazz) it's natural to contrast 4/4 with 2/2, a whole note subdivided in two different ways.

[jaybp30]

So if you take Del's version of All Aboard (see below) is it about 145 in 4/4, 2/4, 2/2 or 8/8. As I understand it, it only really matters for notation. I think of it in 4/4 and Ronnie is chopping on the 1/8th note upbeats on 1, 2 ,3 and 4. Otherwise wouldn't it be at almost 300bpm chopping on 2 and 4.

https://youtu.be/080Kwc1WWiQ

[Mandoplumb]

If the metronome is set at 120 and I am chopping between the clicks ( chopping on the offbeat) I am chopping at the same speed in 2/2 2/4 4/4 or whatever note gets the full one beat or how many beats to a measure. The arguement is mute, it all depends on how you use the metronome.