Sweet spot vs fingerboard extension

[Cochiti Don]

This might be another beating a cafe dead horse, but I’m finding that I want to play in the exact spot that is otherwise occupied by frets I will never use. This apparently doesn’t bother most players I guess. But it bothers me. What should I do or not do?

[pops1]

I like the fingerboard scooped to avoid what I am assuming is the click that is bothering you. Some folks simply cut it off, but I actually like the look of a scooped florida.

[oliverkollar]

I second getting it scooped if it's the extension.

If it is below the extension, you may have to change your picking technique.

[CES]

Yep, get it scooped or removed altogether. Or, learn to live with it. You can hear a fair amount of pick click in professional recordings using Loar or Loar style mandolins with the full Florida...Grisman and Rice's Tone Poems has several examples...

My first mandolin had the full extension, and I adjusted to it, and, heck, the pick click became almost like a metronome when playing hard. Since I moved up to my Silverangel, though, and got used to not having to deal with the extension, it really bugs me when I pick on a mandolin that has one...

Not to say that I'd turn down a Loar if someone gave it to me, but I would have the extension scooped

[DataNick]

Raise the action like Monroe did...

[DavidKOS]

Why does everyone think playing sul tasto - that is, near the neck, is the "sweet spot" ?

That picking position is for the effect of a mellower tone, same as playing sul ponticello (near the bridge) is an effect for getting a more thin bright tone color.

Both are not the standard traditional spot to pick, which is between them.

Those frets are there for playing classical mandolin music.

Removing them is a shame.

Learn to control your pick so as not to hit the fingerboard, or learn to like the real tone of your mandolin when played in the true sweet spot, which is app. 1/9 to 1/10 or the string length and closer to the bridge than seems common these days.

That's where you get the brilliant tone and projection and the real sound of a mandolin.

BTW, try using a pointed thinner but stiff pick, and you may get a better tone than if you use a round thick pick.

All of this advice is from the Neapolitan mandolin tradition and may be counter to the standard American folk/Bluegrass wisdom.

[sblock]

It's probably worth pointing out that that a Neopolitan bowlback mandolin has fewer frets, and therefore has a less intrusive fretboard extension, than the Loar-style F5 design from Gibson. A 'classical' Raffaele Calace mandolin, for example, has 24 frets (and many others have fewer: 20 or 22 are fairly typical). The F5 has 29 frets!! The fretboard extension on the F5 is correspondingly harder to miss if you try to play "sul tasto" -- closer to the nut. I tend to agree with David about the "true" location of the sweet spot, but it's squarely over the frets on an F5. On a bowlback, not so much.

And it's nearly impossible to play expressively, or at full volume, on an F5 over its extension without the pick occasionally hitting those frets -- even for the very best players I have heard.

Perhaps this is the real reason why scooping the extension on an F5 -- or removing the unused frets, or even cutting it off altogether -- is so popular among F5 players? Yes, even for those players with valuable Loar-era instruments. The extension poses much more of a problem on an F5 than on a bowlback, IMO.

[Demetrius]

i never loved the looks of a scooped board especially with out faux frets but it was undeniable that this is the sweet spot, magic place on this mando..

[DavidKOS]

It's probably worth pointing out that that a Neopolitan bowlback mandolin has fewer frets, and therefore has a less intrusive fretboard extension, than the Loar-style F5 design from Gibson. A 'classical' Raffaele Calace mandolin, for example, has 24 frets (and many others have fewer: 20 or 22 are fairly typical). The F5 has 29 frets!! The fretboard extension on the F5 is correspondingly harder to miss if you try to play "sul tasto" -- closer to the nut. I tend to agree with David about the "true" location of the sweet spot, but it's squarely over the frets on an F5. On a bowlback, not so much.

My flatback has fingerboard up to a High A.



What you say may explain why I am one mandolinist that does NOT prefer Gibson archtop mandolins to other types.

[sblock]

Too true! It's a classical mandolin, yes, but it's not a bowlback. The Calace bowlback mandolins don't go to 29 frets, but there are indeed some Embergher mandolins out there that do. However, those are the exceptions. The vast majority of classical bowlback mandolins just don't go that high. And as you can see from your nice picture (but you should have smiled! ), your fretboard extension has to reach clear across the entire oval hole to do it! Caterina Lichtenberg's classical mandolin goes to 24 frets, for example, and this is fairly typical. And Avi Avital's 'modern' classical mandolin by Arik Kerman goes up to 24 frets, too.

Anyway, I see nothing wrong whatosoever with scooping the extension on an F5. The vast majority of mandolin players will never use any frets above, say, 20 or 22. Even classical players seldom, if ever, use them. Let's be honest, here: they're mostly just a 'gimmick!' Furthermore, they are very nearly unplayable! The tone sucks, and the notes die out incredibly quickly. The great David Apollon famously removed the 27th fret from his F5 extension just to give him the extra space to fret the next note up more easily, and he only did that for one show-off tune.

So scoop away, I say.

[Br1ck]

I vote scooped Florida as a compromise position. A Florida is just so traditional. I do like some of the newer builds that hint of a Florida but don't actually have them.

[colorado_al]

It sounds to me like that mandolin is broken. Time for a new one!

[JeffD]

Why does everyone think playing sul tasto - that is, near the neck, is the "sweet spot" ?

That picking position is for the effect of a mellower tone, same as playing sul ponticello (near the bridge) is an effect for getting a more thin bright tone color.

Both are not the standard traditional spot to pick, which is between them.

Those frets are there for playing classical mandolin music.

Removing them is a shame.

Learn to control your pick so as not to hit the fingerboard, or learn to like the real tone of your mandolin when played in the true sweet spot, which is app. 1/9 to 1/10 or the string length and closer to the bridge than seems common these days.

That's where you get the brilliant tone and projection and the real sound of a mandolin.

BTW, try using a pointed thinner but stiff pick, and you may get a better tone than if you use a round thick pick.

All of this advice is from the Neapolitan mandolin tradition and may be counter to the standard American folk/Bluegrass wisdom.

I know a few amazing players who move their picking position up or down, slightly, depending on the strings they are on, to even out the tone. Knowing how to play the idiosyncrasies your instrument is a wonderful thing.

[DavidKOS]

And as you can see from your nice picture (but you should have smiled! ), your fretboard extension has to reach clear across the entire oval hole to do it!

I used the highest fret A at the end of an english Country Dance tune last Sat. night.

"your fretboard extension has to reach clear across the entire oval hole to do it!"

Yeah!

I play in all positions - sometimes I play as much below the other guys, sometimes way above them...

In a way it's like violin vs. fiddle:

same basic instrument, different approaches.

Many fiddle styles don't go into upper positions much - others do, same as mandolin styles.

I also have a vintage bowlback that has a limited fingerboard...I prefer the mandolins with more frets. I had to send the mandolin with the full length fingerboard back to the maker for a few weeks to adjust a few things, and I really missed the upper notes.

[dhergert]

These are the two mandolins that I routinely play:

-

Of the two I much prefer the truncated; even though the scoop is generous, I still hit it occasionally.

[multidon]

You know, this thread got me thinking, and I had one of those “duh” moments. It suddenly seems to me that, on an electric guitar or any other electric instrument with two pickups, the position of the two pickups gives the player “sul tasto” or “sul ponticello” sounds simply by switching from the neck to the bridge pickup, without having to change your pick location. Am I right?

It kind of seems to me that the “argument” here isn’t really an argument at all. It’s just a difference in styles, and players adapting the instruments to that style. What sounds good to a Classical player steeped in European traditions does not sound good to a Bluegrass or folk player steeped in American traditions. Many American players playing in American folk music styles just prefer the mellow tone you get closer to the neck. Just like many jazz guitar player only use their neck pickup, or own a guitar that only has a neck pickup.

One of the things I like about my Weber Bitterroots is that they have no extensions. I would say that, in my own playing, the highest I ever go is fret 15, and then only occasionally. So that works for me. I would probably never even buy an instrument with an extension. They just get in the way for me and I don’t need them for what I play. But it’s a big, wonderful world of mandolins out there, and I say play whatever instrument floats your boat. That said, I am not a big fan of doing major alterations on instruments. Rather than having to decide whether to remove the extension, or scoop it, and whether to have faux frets or no frets, I like the idea of just buying an instrument that meets your needs as it is.

[ukenukem]

I played my first mandolin for months before seeing the "Florida" reference here on the forum. After I found out what it was I realized I had not noticed its existence! Mine did not have it and I cannot imagine being able to play that far up the neck anyway. As I have purchased additional mandolins (of course!) I seek out the non-extended ones.

[DavidKOS]

You know, this thread got me thinking, and I had one of those “duh” moments. It suddenly seems to me that, on an electric guitar or any other electric instrument with two pickups, the position of the two pickups gives the player “sul tasto” or “sul ponticello” sounds simply by switching from the neck to the bridge pickup, without having to change your pick location. Am I right?

Partially.

Indeed, the placement of a pickup does affect tone, as the pickup will amplify the sound of the strings at the place the pickup crosses the strings.

However, when using any particular pickup on the electric guitar, you also can change the tone by playing sul tasto or sul ponticello.

It kind of seems to me that the “argument” here isn’t really an argument at all. It’s just a difference in styles, and players adapting the instruments to that style. What sounds good to a Classical player steeped in European traditions does not sound good to a Bluegrass or folk player steeped in American traditions. Many American players playing in American folk music styles just prefer the mellow tone you get closer to the neck.

I guess this is true.

Although I was born in America, I evidently do not have "American" tastes in mandolins or mandolin tone.

Viva Italia.

[V70416]

29 fret extension on a carved-top Gibsonesque mandolin is like an appendix;no reason for it to be there and has the potential to cause
serious problems.

Why let a useless affectation cramp one's style? Also,it seems counterproductive to let a silly piece of the instrument
guide you as to whether or not to purchase a particular mandolin. It's easy enough to cut off and makes a much more
pick-friendly instrument. Fretboards are replaceable.

Scooping helps but can still impede the pick.

Best solution,for me, is to lop off the extension after the 19th fret. And make a bolo tie out of the Fla.

[vetus scotia]

Why does everyone think playing sul tasto - that is, near the neck, is the "sweet spot" ?

Google tells me that one primary English translation of 'sul tasto' is 'on the button.' Which makes me think it is actually equivalent to 'sweet spot.' But I also imagine that the 'sweet spot' on mandolin is subjective. I tend to play mandolin (and guitar) further back towards the bridge. So for me, the harsher sound I get from playing there is 'sweet', even if it is not actually sweet.

[DavidKOS]

29 fret extension on a carved-top Gibsonesque mandolin is like an appendix;no reason for it to be there and has the potential to cause
serious problems.

Why let a useless affectation cramp one's style?

If you play classical mandolin those frets are not "a useless affectation".

Of course if you have no interest in classical mandolin, then you may never use those frets. But they were there for a reason.

[DavidKOS]

Google tells me that one primary English translation of 'sul tasto' is 'on the button.' Which makes me think it is actually equivalent to 'sweet spot.' But I also imagine that the 'sweet spot' on mandolin is subjective. I tend to play mandolin (and guitar) further back towards the bridge. So for me, the harsher sound I get from playing there is 'sweet', even if it is not actually sweet.

Google is not using the term as musicians do.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sul%20tasto

"with the bow kept over the fingerboard so as to produce a soft thin tone —used as a direction in music for a stringed instrument"

https://www.britannica.com/art/sul-tasto

" sul tasto (bowing on the fingerboard),"

[jimmy powells]

Scooped. No point having something that annoys you regardless of classical or other viewpoints. If it's a high end mandolin then a really neat scoop (but not too long which looks bad) is the answer. Don't like Sam Bush's cut off and don't now why Gibson had to make EXACTLY the same shape for their Sam Bush model. I definitely appreciate why Sam Bush cut his off though. I thought Gibson could have looked at the shape and offerred to do a mini Florida on Sam's and then make their Sam Bush model like that.

I have a shortened one on my Northfield and had one on a custom Summit a few years ago and both brilliant. When I pick up an F4 or similar now, the pick click really annoys.

If fingerboard is not bound then, take it back a good way. You'll soon forget about anyone's opinion except your own when enjoying playing it.

[Marty Jacobson]

Of course if you have no interest in classical mandolin, then you may never use those frets. But they were there for a reason.

Dunno. When I figure out how to use the first three frets maybe I'll move on to some of the ones higher up...

[MontanaMatt]

Mini Florida, with scoop. My preference.