Guitar Center yesterday, 2 Gibsons!

[multidon]

Among the sites I look at regularly for something interesting is the Guitar Center used website. Yesterday I noticed the Youngstown, Ohio Store posted a 2003 Fern for 4800, in great condition. I am only about an hour drive from Youngstown so I decided to go check it out. I was prepared to buy it, but only if it blew me away. I took along my Weber Bitterroot F for comparison. For years now I have been reading posts from Gibson fans here, talking up that era of Gibson mandolins. I have heard that era referred to as a “sweet spot”, marking a return to Loar specs under Derrington. It really seemed like a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire an instrument like that, and a bit under market price as well.

Well, after I got there, the young fellow took it out of a glass display case for me. First impressions: it was breathtakingly beautiful, with flawless fit and finish (a few tiny scratches and finish swirls.it had been played, not abused). The label was signed by Danny Roberts. The Fern headstock inlay was to die for. As I began to play it, the instrument seemed perfectly set up and required only the slightest tweak of the tuning. The strings looked like a shiny brand new set. I ran through some scales, then a couple of tunes. It sounded really good. But I didn’t particularly care for the neck (deep v), board (flat), or frets (tiny). Still, I reasoned that I could get used to those. But then I picked up the Bitterroot. Guess what? It sounded better than the Fern. Noticeably better. Really, I swear. I went back and forth several times to be sure. Confirmed. Buying the Fern would not give me an improvement in tone. So in spite of the legendary status, the headstock, the name, and the beautiful craftsmanship, the tone was the deal breaker. Now, don’t get me wrong. It was a good tone. Just no improvement for me. Maybe even a step back. In an instrument that was harder to play. I think this would be a nice instrument for somebody. Just not my cup of tea for sure. And the experience has given me a new found appreciation for my Weber. To be continued.

[multidon]

Trip to GC part two.

This store also had an A50 in stock, not sure of the year. I tried that one as well. It was one that had the fret board glued to the top, not elevated. Cosmetically, it was pretty scratched up, particularly around the bridge area, where it looked like someone was fond of sliding the bridge around to different locations while under tension. The tuners and pickguard were obvious modern replacements, and the cloud tailpiece cover was original but very corroded. The strings looked older but it was tuned and set up. I played through my routine, and was pleasantly surprised. Nice tone! Even with older strings I actually preferred the A50 tone to that of the Fern! At 1099 I might have been tempted if it weren’t in such rough cosmetic shape. Original parts might have helped too. But I passed.

As long as I was there, just for the heck of it I pulled a The Loar 310 from the Wall. Now, I’ve played many of these. I have disparaged them frequently here as “bricks with strings”. Every GC has one, and they are always set up horribly and I always have to tune them before they are even playable. Well, this was the surprise of the day. This one was set up well, tuned, and ready to pay! And guess what? I thought it sounded pretty good! It was loud, midrangy, and consistent from bass to treble. This from a 299 instrument with laminated back and sides! Shows the importance of set up, doesn’t it? I’ve completely turned around on these. Not that I would suggest it as a substitute for a Gibson or Weber. But as a first beginners instrument, knock around, or back up, you could do a lot worse.

Kudos to whoever does the set ups at the Youngstown GC. Every mandolin I tried, from cheap to expensive, was perfectly set up and tuned, ready to try. I have been to many of the chain’s locations, and when it come to mandolins, the norm is to unbox them and hang them up. This store is a notable exception. Good on them.

I passed up those two Gibson but if you’re in the market check them out. NFI. You might like them even if they didn’t float my boat.

[Michael Neverisky]

Acoustic instruments need to be played. The worn, well used one will often sound better than the one which is in "mint condition". In my experience. Likewise, I have yet to find a new mandolin in any store, by any maker, which sounds as good to me as the mandolin I play every day.

[multidon]

Michael, it is true that I considered the possibility that I was just subconsciously biased towards the tone of the instrument I am most familiar with. I forgot to mention that my wife was along for the trip, and agreed with my tone assessment after repeated blind A-B comparisons. So she had no dog in the race. She was totally behind me spending the money if I really liked it.

[MikeZito]

I am still waiting for the right Weber to fall into my hands . . . congrats and enjoy!

[Roger Moss]

When I see a "mint condition" vintage instrument, I have to wonder what was wrong with it that the owner never cared to play it. Of course, it could have been lost in the hoard of a compulsive collector, but...

[multidon]

Note: the Fern is not in mint condition. They call it “great”. It had a few minor scratches and a lot of swirl marks in the finish. It had obviously been handled quite a bit and played, but not abused and well taken care of. The person who owned this one seems a lot like me. I also handle and play mine a lot but I handle it carefully and try to take good care of it. I see no charm or mojo in instruments that have been hacked to pieces.

[Michael Neverisky]

Michael, it is true that I considered the possibility that I was just subconsciously biased towards the tone of the instrument I am most familiar with.

That's part of it for sure, but I would also say that I believe that we play tone into our instruments. We repeat the mechanics that help produce the tone we like and I think the instrument gets used to vibrating in response and together we become partners in tone. What contributes to the sale of new instruments, in my opinion, is novelty effect. Humans like new things.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's simple. When you've already found the instrument that speaks to you then it's going to be a hard act to follow. I've got mine. I might find another mandolin that i'll buy but I have my mandolin and I doubt I could get rid of it. Some people never find that.

[roysboy]

Acoustic instruments need to be played. The worn, well used one will often sound better than the one which is in "mint condition". In my experience. Likewise, I have yet to find a new mandolin in any store, by any maker, which sounds as good to me as the mandolin I play every day.

I hear ya ...we DO get 'acclimatized' to the sound of our own instrument -for better or for worse , I believe.
About 5-6 years ago I owned an Eastman 305 ...loved it . I played a new KM 150 and a used KM 805 one day -both in ther same shop-and had a wow moment even with those relatively inexpensive instruments . TONE .Sold the Eastman , bought the KM 150 and never looked back .I've since played many Eastman's and other under $1000-mandolins ( curiosity and availability ) and confirmed my decision most every time .Granted ..what you are looking for in the tone department is THE factor for most folks ....but again ...MY instrument was 'out-toned' by the Km 150 to my ear and I had no problem selling it and buying the 150 ..

[Northwest Steve]

When I see a "mint condition" vintage instrument, I have to wonder what was wrong with it that the owner never cared to play it. Of course, it could have been lost in the hoard of a compulsive collector, but...

- Often times someone buys an instrument and wants to learn - they play for a while loose interest or the commitment and it sits in a closet

- Played an instrument in a band and either changed bands or the needs of the band changed and they no longer play it
- Someone has health issues or gets older and can't play but has an attachment and does not want to let the instrument go
- Life gets in the way, kids, career, school, etc. and it ends up in the closet
- Some one passes away and it goes to a family member who keeps it for sentential reasons or think they might want to learn


I have one mandolin that I was told it was played 4 times in 19 years and sat in the closet for 18 of those years. It was mint not a scratch so I have no reason to not believe them. Another that is not mint was an older gentleman and he passed away and left it to his son.


Two of the best instruments I purchased if I had walked into a store and taken them off the wall and played them I would have never bought either one. One needed very little set-up work, new strings and to be played regularly and it opened up. Leave it in the case for a week and you had to play it for a few hours to wake up again. My first experience with a mandolin changing dramatically after it had been played. My 2001 Flatiron Festival F5 was not quite as described, had old strings and the first several frets worn badly. I was extremely disappointed and had buyer remorse. I took it to my local luthier and he did a partial re-fret and a setup. It was night and day difference and after playing for a while it opened up and is a great mandolin. So I believe it can be somewhat hard to gauge an instrument from one test drive.




- S

[Seter]

I think gifted instruments are another source of old mint condition instruments. I've bought a fair amount of inexpensive ukuleles as as gifts for friends that will probably be pulled out of the closest in 60 years by their grandkids and sold on the virtual reality ukuleleunderground in mint condition.

[multidon]

This is a really interesting discussion! Lots of interesting points of view.

For me I don’t think it was just the “I want something new” syndrome. It was at least partially the “I’m a mandolinist, therefore I should have a Gibson” malady. I really wanted to like it. It’s a Gibson. It’s a Fern. It was made during a period with a great reputation. It’s signed by Danny Roberts. I thought wow, if I had an instrument like that, that would mean I’ve reached the pinnacle of mandolin ownership. It’s the one everyone else imitates but never duplicates. It’s the golden standard. But alas, I just didn’t like it well enough. Thank goodness I have the ability to be honest with myself and can resist the urge to buy something just for image alone.

I would love to find a Gibson that speaks to me. We just don’t see many of them in this neck of the woods. This was the first time I ever held an F-5 in my hands. I have played some A’s, both oval and F hole. But my Gibson exposure is limited. I am a great fan of Gibson guitars. My prime guitar axe right now is a J-29. It’s just magnificent. And it wants a friend! I have to admit I’m feeling some disappointment and letdown because of not buying the Fern, after I had built myself up to like it. But no regrets. If I had bought it, it would have been for all the wrong reasons.

[Br1ck]

It has been my experience that once you get to a certain level of mandolin, you experience different more than better, and you have honed your playing style, subconscincely or not, to suit your mandolin. I'm a believer you need to spend time with an instrument, so will not disparage those that swap one for another on a quest for their perfect tone.

There are many fine instruments. Once in a while one will jump out and whack you over the head. Pay attention.

[Jeff Mando]

I think there is good potential to get a bargain at Guitar Center. People know they buy and trade instruments and I, myself, have sold them several instruments. Depending on how passive you are, personality-wise, you may accept an offer that is less than what you might get with a little negotiation and research. I usually bring in printouts from GC's website, showing what they are selling similar examples for. With this info, you may convince them to pay as much as 70 percent of their published retail. Without it, you may accept much less. For this reason, I think many items get bought and sold "too cheap" at GC. That and a general lack of enthusiasm for all non-electric guitar related items. OTOH, I once sold them a vintage Martin D-28 that I felt had a poor neckset, tons of pickwear, and a lot of wear showing in general. All these things were non-issues to them and they paid me way more than I was expecting -- so you never know!

[MikeEdgerton]

The real deals are found when they don't know what it is. Most of the time anything with Gibson, Martin, or Taylor on it will be at pretty hefty price. That doesn't mean you won't find them dropping prices. I watch those actually. There are times that they just don't have the buyer in the right location for the product. I bought a guitar from them last year that I didn't need and wasn't looking for but the price was right.

[Seter]

I see a lot of good deals on used instruments that aren't guitars/ukes/mandolins and don't fit in their categories, like charangos, bouzoukis, baglamas etc every once in awhile going for well below what they would on other sites.

[jimmy powells]

I had a similar experience a few weeks ago when I went to see a 'extremely rare in the UK' Gibson F5L which I've longed for for years. It was a 1990 Steve Carlson signed F5 in virtual mint condition. After a brief play I just couldn't live with the fingerboard extension and scooping it could have looked ugly as it is so long. Put me right off Gibsons because they all seem to be the same. A5-Ls as well. Tone and volume was very good and in fact everything was great although perhaps not as great as my Northfield BigMon F5 which is a particularly good one.

I also felt I would have the 'pinnacle in the mandolin world' in terms of modern mandolins.i.e. A Mint condition Gibson F5 which had great tone and volume. Have I regretted not buying it? I probably have but getting over it. I now feel that I couldn't look at any F5 with the fingerboard extension so my love of Gibsons has more or less diminished.

Having said that I'll never stop loving old F4s and I never seemed to have that pick click issue with the good F4s I've had so I'd buy another.

JimmyP
UK

[Northwest Steve]

MultiDon - since you live in PA do you see any used Stiver's. Not sure how close he is to you but I would be looking for a used one and at the price of the Gibson you could almost have him build you one. I have not played one but lots of positive feedback and the ones I have heard online sound great.

[mugbucket]

I am still waiting for the right Weber to fall into my hands . . . congrats and enjoy!

It happens - the tricky part is having the means to pull the trigger. Happy hunting!

[f5loar]

The best way to try out a mandolin is get on a stage and see how it sounds against a Mastertone and a Herringbone. I can sit down in a store and think this is the one. Then you try it out in a band and you learn it ain't all that great. Guitar Center is not known for their great set ups. Sounds like this one may have been at least had new strings put on it. The Bitterroot is a lot lighter mandolin in weight. General the lighter the louder (up to a certain size).

[William Smith]

Very True Tom! Either the mandolin has it or not but in this day and age with mic's etc...one can play most anything and be heard but does it have the tone the "it" factor?
I'm still a firm believer mandolins/most instruments need played to sound optimal, I've never been happy with the sound or tone of any new instrument, for sure mandolins and I've had pry well over 50 in close to 30 years-that's 1980-present times! Only been happy with the sounds of the well played in stuff and that's mostly pre-war! Granted I had a 82 Gil F-5 that was played in but I was happier playing my old F-7 RW-convert! Maybe its the tone I'm accustomed to hearing on my favorite music I listen to? Or I'm nuts!
On the Gibson fern at GC the deep V would be a deal breaker for me as I like a rounded neck.

[SAfricaMandolin]

Such a great discussion, on so many levels for us newbies. I enjoy learning along with others and may be one of the few non-players who is quickly acquiring MAS. Always fun to hear comparisons...

[Doc Ivory]

I always kinda wonder about mint condition older instruments.
They just weren't played and the tone wasn't allowed to "open".

Some of the older instruments are just dang hard to play in my opinion.
Certainly over the years instrument makers have listened to their customers and made the necks perhaps a little slimmer, frets a little bigger etc.

Nothing wrong with older instruments, but just like older vehicles, they're cool but the newer improvements aren't there.
Just my two cents

[Northwest Steve]

Not where you can try it out but.....
https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/127810#127810