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Thread: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

  1. #26

    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    you don't get it. this isn't about being an "alarmist", it's about realizing that the flying world isn't perfect. be prepared. have a plan B.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  2. #27
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    you don't get it. this isn't about being an "alarmist", it's about realizing that the flying world isn't perfect. be prepared. have a plan B.
    Well, I suppose the very same thing could be said about every single aspect of life, not just air travel with a mandolin. It's probably a truism to always have a "Plan B", but that is not especially helpful advice in the abstract, I'm afraid! What specific "Plan B" did you have in mind for the OP? Leave the mandolin at home? Buy a "disposable" beater mandolin? Ship it ahead by FedEx or some other route? Buy a seat for it? Check it as baggage? Argue with the gate agent? Picket the FAA or start a letter-writing campaign?

    Writing for myself, I am all about finding practical solutions. The OP asked a specific question about traveling to Bejing on United Airlines. I have tried to confine my answers, for the most part, to his problem, and not the general problem of air travel with all manner of instruments.

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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    It's easy to have a plan B: be nice if a problem arises. Most of the time, if you're nice, the flight attendants will accommodate you (put your mandolin in a closet or something). Worst case scenario, you can always just get off the plane and book another flight.

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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Thanks to everyone, especially sblock. I have the United policy printed out. Next step is to see if I can upgrade my boarding status.

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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Even the intripid Mr. Thile has had some issues of late with well-meaning flight attendants, as a song of the week he wrote about Delta implies: https://mobile.twitter.com/christhil...64744325853184

    (Delta answered him and apperantly wants to do better!) But can you imagine being asked to check an F5?!?

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  9. #31
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    IMHO 'rfd' is totally spot on in what he says. From articles which i've read,& in my personal correspondence with a member of the UK Musician's Union,who is currently engaged in helping to sort out this mess - expecting to carry an instrument on board an airline both in the EU & 'elsewhere', is still a total gamble = some might / others might not allow you to take your instrument on board. Take nothing for granted.

    For us,this matter is a 'priority' issue,to the airlines,it isn't - it's as simple as that. Unless all the airline's staff are thoroughly breifed re. their policy,some staff will know / others won't. We know that because it's still happening.

    IMO - ONLY a direct ruling regarding this matter from the airline controlling bodiies :- the FAA in the USA / the CAA in the UK & the JAA (Joint Aviation Authority) in the EU, can put this to bed once & for all. But as i say - it's not a priority matter for them either.

    From above - " But can you imagine being asked to check an F5 '' Yep !!!,
    Ivan
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Last year I was boarding a Southwest flight (with my mandolin) and the pilot was at the end of the jetway providing some entertainment on a short scale Martin and crooning a nice rendition of Sitting on the Dock of the Bay. He sees my mandolin case, asks me if I'm in tune and invites me to join him. As much as I wanted to jam with the pilot, all I could think about was being at the end of boarding group C with no overhead space. I regrettably had to decline the offer...
    Mike Bloder
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    @sblock: I too don't think he was being alarmist. I am a million-plus-mile frequent flyer (probably closer to two million) on multiple airlines and I have traveled with a mandolin most of that time. The "standardization" is one of those things that is never a problem until it is a problem. You can have 20 good experiences and then a really bad one and when the bad one happens, you're stuck. I have seen flights not follow the rules with carry on medical equipment and that has a federal law behind it! There have been multiple stories in the news over the last few years of airlines ruining instruments. One singer-songwriter in Canada wrote a song about it. Also, I have seen other passengers negligently do hazardous stuff to other people's carry ons.

    It's a jungle out there. Keep in mind the codeshare/partner situation. If you book United, you may not wind up on an actual United flight with United employees. On short flights, you might wind up on one of many partners, like Mesa Airlines, with United painted on the side. You may also wind up getting transferred to another major, like Delta, if the flight has a problem. Then you are under different rules and the gate agents and the cabin crew have discretion. I once had to demand an appeal of a carry on determination to the Captain. I prevailed, but it might have gone the other way.

    I won't tell anyone what they should do, but for me, I see four modes of travel that I would consider using:
    1. Good instrument that I absolutely would not want to lose: Calton-level case. I would try to carry it on, but I would be prepared that it might have to get gate-checked. I would not want to give it to baggage handling unless it was in that level of case.
    2. Beater instrument: Soft gig bag. I do NOT depend on boarding early because sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't even with FF status. Being "Platinum" doesn't count for much anymore. You have to be "Executive Platinum, Oneworld Alliance, VIP, Grand Wizard" to get in Group 1 and even that line is 50 feet long. I hold the mando in my lap until just before the seatbelt sign comes on. Then I open an almost full compartment and slip the mando in its soft case on top of all the other luggage.
    3. Travel instrument: In my carry on or checked bag. Travel mandos are pretty rugged. I used to have an acoustic travel mando I packed, but I have switched to a Risa solid uke that I have strung and tuned like a mandolin. I also had a new bridge put on it for better intonation. It takes up almost no room in the suitcase, it's indestructible and loud enough for practice in the hotel room.
    4. Going to a jam at the destination, but don't want to bring my good mando: I once rented a Gibson F-9 from a local music store for the week at a destination. That worked out really well.

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  15. #34

    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    On a recent flight on Icelandic, staffed by BOAC employees under contract, from JFK to Amsterdam, I was asked to put the mando case in the bag check box. The gate agent pointed out that it did not fit, and we got into a discussion about overhead, etc. He was not aware of the FAA reg on the subject, but volunteered that it might not apply to international flights. He was not happy to be reminded of regulations, saying "now you want to be a lawyer?" but did let me board with the case. I strongly recommend a hard case. Even in an overhead, a gig bag won't protect from someone pushing their roller bag in. Board early, I mostly fly in the US on SWA, never had an issue, have been supported by staff when challenged by other passengers. I always pay the $15 for early bird on SWA.

    I think it is a question for the FAA if the instrument must be accomodated in the cabin -- if space available when boarding -- applies only to domestic or includes international with a stop in the US.

    A good friend recently had his gigging guitar demolished by American. The damage almost seemed intentional from the pictures. He was on the way home, so less stress than if it had been two hours before a show.
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  17. #35
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    From Dave Martin - " I was asked to put the mando case in the bag check box. " - Dave - Checking a bag / case in that way is one of my main bones of contention in this fiasco !. It should be about the case 'VOLUME' not it's dimensions . My mandolin,in it's Travelite case,is just over 1/2 the VOLUME of what i'm allowed to take on board - but because one dimension - it's length ,exceeds the rules,i'm oficially not allowed to take it on board. That situation is to me,beyond stupidity.

    My ''allowed'' luggage size according to the dimensions shown on airline websites is 2.29 cubic feet by volume ( L = 22" x D = 18" x W = 10.0") My Travelite case works out at 1.17 cubic feet by volume -so why can't i take it on board ?. Possibly because the idiots that came up with the rules didn't think it through far enough.

    Doing it their way,you could have an item with dimensions 24" long x 2" wide x 2" deep that you wouldn't be allowed to take on board,because it's 2" longer that what's allowed - despite the volume being only a fraction of the allowed volume. Can you see the total stupidity of the current situation ? -& that's only half the story !!!,
    Ivan
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  19. #36

    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    My experience has been that it comes down to a power-play by the gate agents. A couple years ago I flew to Nashville with a guitar. As we lined up to board, I saw to other persons with guitars in soft cases go past the agent. It came my turn and she said I'd have to gate check my guitar. I told her of the policy and that I witnessed her allowing two other guitars. She said that the policy allows for only two guitars per plane and that there wasn't enough overhead space. After some more discussion, she slapped a tag on my guitar and told me to walk it down the gangway and give place it with the rest of the items that were to be gate checked. I walked down the gangway, removed the tag from my guitar and boarded the plane. There was plenty of overhead space.

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  21. #37
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    From Dave Martin - " I was asked to put the mando case in the bag check box. " - Dave - Checking a bag / case in that way is one of my main bones of contention in this fiasco !. It should be about the case 'VOLUME' not it's dimensions . My mandolin,in it's Travelite case,is just over 1/2 the VOLUME of what i'm allowed to take on board - but because one dimension - it's length ,exceeds the rules,i'm oficially not allowed to take it on board. That situation is to me,beyond stupidity.

    My ''allowed'' luggage size according to the dimensions shown on airline websites is 2.29 cubic feet by volume ( L = 22" x D = 18" x W = 10.0") My Travelite case works out at 1.17 cubic feet by volume -so why can't i take it on board ?. Possibly because the idiots that came up with the rules didn't think it through far enough.

    Doing it their way,you could have an item with dimensions 24" long x 2" wide x 2" deep that you wouldn't be allowed to take on board,because it's 2" longer that what's allowed - despite the volume being only a fraction of the allowed volume. Can you see the total stupidity of the current situation ? -& that's only half the story !!!,
    Ivan
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    Huh? Where are you getting your information? The size and weight limitations for carry-on bags on U.S. airlines are not based on the volume of the bag (L x W x H). They are based maximum dimensions and maximum weight. And this is perfectly appropriate. You write that "it should be about the volume, not its dimensions," but that's downright silly, and at complete odds with the actual policy. Carry-ons have to be able to fit into the overhead bins, Ivan! Obviously, they cannot accommodate an 8-foot length of fishing pole, even if the pole has a samall volume (and that's why most fishing poles come apart into sections). Some air shipment carriers, like FedEx and UPS, may go by volume and weight, but commercial air carriers do not, and they have never done so, and for perfectly good reasons!

    Here's the policy from United Airlines' website (the airlines that the OP was asking about). It's all about dimensions, not volume:

    "Carry-on bag
    The maximum dimensions for a carry-on bag are 9 inches x 14 inches x 22 inches (22 cm x 35 cm x 56 cm), including handles and wheels. "

    The problem with a mandolin case is not that it has too much volume! The problem is that a mandolin case exceeds 22 inches in length. It therefore will not fit "head-in" into the overhead compartments, and has to be placed transversely (long axis parallel to the aircraft). This placement makes it take up significantly greater space, which might otherwise be occupied by two typical roll-aboard bags, which can go wheels-in.

    I appreciate that United will allow me -- and HAS allowed me, many times! -- to fly with my mandolin as a carry-on, but I do not kid myself into believing that I'm not taking up a bit more space than a typical passenger. And I agree with them that carry-on items need to be considered based on their dimensions, not volume (and the max. weight).

    But here is the best approach to traveling with a mandolin, in my opinion:

    One thing I always do to further endear myself to the gate agents, in addition to being polite and non-confrontational at all times (unless it becomes absolutely necessary to argue airline policy): I only carry aboard TWO items: my roll-aboard and my mandolin. In principle, United's policy allows me to carry the mandolin in addition to a roll-aboard and a personal item, for a total of three items in all. But I only board with two, so that my mandolin becomes my "personal item." I always bring an ultralight packback (thin nylon, and folds into a small pocket) that carries my documents, checkbook, keys, my laptop computer, a book/magazine, medicine, etc., but I manage to squeeze this backpack inside the outer pocket of my roll-aboard in the gate area and during early boarding! (Doing so only requires me to slightly underfill the rollaboard). This way, those sharp-eyed gate agents, who are always on the lookout for folks trying to sneak extra items on board, always see me with only two items. And they cannot easily tell that my small-looking mandolin case exceeds 22" (it's only 2-4 inches over), so I almost never raise a red flag. It's all about keeping a low profile. On top of that, I always give them a big smile and am sure to say "hello" as I pass (this distracts them, and it also expresses good will). While walking down the jetway, I simply slide the ultralight packback out of the outer zipped pocket of my rollaboard and place it on my back. I board the plane as early as I can manage, stow mandolin FIRST in the overhead near my seat, and then look for any convenient place for the roll-aboard. The ultralight backpack with the computer and book goes under the seat in front of me. Works like a charm. And it's all perfectly "legal" under United's rules.


    And now you all know my best travel secret!!!
    Last edited by sblock; Jul-22-2018 at 3:06pm.

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  23. #38
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    sblock - The dimensions of the bag in the diagram,are from an airline info. web page = i didn't dream it up & i didn't draw the diagram. I've had it on my PC for several years now.
    That's the info. given. You can find similar hand luggage sizes for many airlines here :- https://www.skyscanner.net/news/cabi...t-restrictions

    My argument is that luggage restrictions can be 'dimension' based,but ultimately,it should be about the total 'space' (Volume), that an item takes up. After all,the luggage takes up a specific ''volume'' dependent on it's dimensions doesn't it ?. It doesn't take up more or less space because it's placed in the baggage bin a 'certain way',& before you get on the aircraft,who can tell if any other item will actually be placed in the same bin anyway ??.

    Regarding the ''baggage bins'' (lockers) on aircraft - i used to help design them (amongst other items),so i'm fully aware of their purpose. Flying back from the US in '92,i was allowed to take my banjo in it's new Mark Leaf case on board & place it in the overhead baggage bin. It fit without any problem & there was still plenty of space left. The size of the baggage bins on board most aircraft are designed with the total aircraft carrying capacity in mind,& in many cases,there's more space than is required. Airlines do NOT want baggage placed under seats etc. if they can avoid it, it constitutes a possible 'crash hazzard', & most folk do usually restrict themselves re. how much they take on board,
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  24. #39
    Registered User liestman's Avatar
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Boy, sblock, you must be smiling really well because United's policy is to allow the musical instrument as you "big" carryon and then you are also allowed a personal item (smaller than the 22x11x9) as your second item. From their website:

    As carry-on
    As part of the allowance of one carry-on bag plus one personal item, a passenger may carry a violin, guitar or other small musical instrument on board the aircraft if:
    1. The instrument can be stowed in the overhead bin or under the seat in front of the passenger; and
    2. There is space for stowage at the time when the passenger boards the aircraft
    Musical instruments transported on board United and United Express aircraft must be in hard-shell cases.

    So even with the mando, you don't get three items, just two and the roll aboard bag is surely not small enough to fit their "personal item" description. Like I said, you must smile really well!
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  25. #40
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by liestman View Post
    Boy, sblock, you must be smiling really well because United's policy is to allow the musical instrument as you "big" carryon and then you are also allowed a personal item (smaller than the 22x11x9) as your second item. From their website:

    As carry-on
    As part of the allowance of one carry-on bag plus one personal item, a passenger may carry a violin, guitar or other small musical instrument on board the aircraft if:
    1. The instrument can be stowed in the overhead bin or under the seat in front of the passenger; and
    2. There is space for stowage at the time when the passenger boards the aircraft
    Musical instruments transported on board United and United Express aircraft must be in hard-shell cases.

    So even with the mando, you don't get three items, just two and the roll aboard bag is surely not small enough to fit their "personal item" description. Like I said, you must smile really well!
    Well, I do smile well -- in fact, I'd say that I have a winning smile.

    You would be surprised (well, maybe not! ) at the number of musicians who take three items aboard and get away with it. Usually they are carrying ukes or guitars; almost never mandolins or violins. But they are playing with fire. Anyway, I fly with two items only, stay within the letter of the rules, and simply ooze politeness. Until they give me a hard time, that is -- which VERY seldom happens these days -- at which point I whip out a copy of the airlines policy printed on paper and ask for a ruling by a their supervisor. But it seldom comes to that (1 in 20 flights, I'm guessing). Gate agents don't like irregularities, and they especially don't like to waste time in the boarding process, or get over-ruled by their supervisor. But they also hate rude passengers even more, so never be rude, learn the rules, and stick with them. The rules can be your friend.

    But here is something important to know: The rules DO NOT state that a musical instrument must meet the dimensional requirements for either a personal or a carry-on bag! They ONLY state that the instrument must be able to fit into available overhead (or other) stowage. A mandolin case will fit in the overhead, and so will a guitar or banjo, despite being too long to qualify as normal carry-on or personal bags. These instruments are all legal. A cello is not (won't fit).
    Last edited by sblock; Jul-23-2018 at 12:06pm.

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  27. #41
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    sblock - The dimensions of the bag in the diagram,are from an airline info. web page = i didn't dream it up & i didn't draw the diagram. I've had it on my PC for several years now.
    That's the info. given. You can find similar hand luggage sizes for many airlines here :- https://www.skyscanner.net/news/cabi...t-restrictions

    My argument is that luggage restrictions can be 'dimension' based,but ultimately,it should be about the total 'space' (Volume), that an item takes up. After all,the luggage takes up a specific ''volume'' dependent on it's dimensions doesn't it ?. It doesn't take up more or less space because it's placed in the baggage bin a 'certain way',& before you get on the aircraft,who can tell if any other item will actually be placed in the same bin anyway ??.

    Regarding the ''baggage bins'' (lockers) on aircraft - i used to help design them (amongst other items),so i'm fully aware of their purpose. Flying back from the US in '92,i was allowed to take my banjo in it's new Mark Leaf case on board & place it in the overhead baggage bin. It fit without any problem & there was still plenty of space left. The size of the baggage bins on board most aircraft are designed with the total aircraft carrying capacity in mind,& in many cases,there's more space than is required. Airlines do NOT want baggage placed under seats etc. if they can avoid it, it constitutes a possible 'crash hazzard', & most folk do usually restrict themselves re. how much they take on board,
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    Ivan: Once again, the rules for maximum size are about the dimensions, NOT about the volume. There is nothing wrong at all with the diagram you put up. What's wrong is your chosen interpretation of the diagram: you seem to think, somehow, that it's the overall volume that counts (or that "should count"), and not the maximal dimensions. Sorry, but you have that all wrong! The airline restrictions on carry-ons pertain to their size and weight, and not their volume. A typical mandolin case is too long in one dimension (its length) to qualify as either a carry-on or a personal item. Ditto for a guitar or a banjo case. Remember, I own a Stelling banjo, too (Bellflower from 1979) -- in a Calton case (not as big and heavy as your Mark Leaf), and I have traveled with it rather recently (i.e., in the past few months) on United Airlines! As I recall, you yourself haven't traveled by air with a musical instrument on a U.S. carrier in a very, very long time (a decade or more). Perhaps your experience is not current?

    Under the most recent FAA rules as implemented by United, it's still perfectly "legal" to bring these items (e.g., one of a mandolin, banjo, guitar, uke, violin, flute, etc.) aboard a United Airlines flight here in the U.S. (or an international flight leaving/arriving in the U.S.) whenever sufficient overhead stowage exists, provided they fit with their hardshell cases into the bins: which they do. No, they don't have to meet the usual dimensional requirements!

    Also, you wrote that airlines do not want luggage stowed under the seats. Sorry to say this, but that's not quite correct! The airlines DO want to have luggage stowed under the seat (it saves on precious overhead space, which is in very short supply), provided that the luggage stored there is small enough not to extend beyond the margin of the seatback and into the footspace area. Luggage extending into the footspace strip is considered to be a tripping hazard in the event of an emergency evacuation, and they tend to be very strict about not allowing this. A mandolin case will extend into the footspace, and you cannot store it under the seat in front of you in the Economy class. It must go into the overhead stowage space (or in a closet, if available -- but only the flight attendants have access to this, and they give preference to Business and First class, not Economy. Never count on using the closet).


    Anyway, in the final analysis, this is not a matter of personal opinions passionately held by MC members about how things ought to be, or about how things used to be in the past, or about bad experiences on other airlines, and possibly in other countries. It's about the current rules and policy on United Airlines. The OP wrote that he was planning on taking United Airlines to Beijing. Well, I know how to bring a mandolin on that route! My advice is current, carefully aligned with the airline's policy, based on actual and recent flying experience, and carefully reasoned.
    Last edited by sblock; Jul-23-2018 at 12:19pm.

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  29. #42
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    I agree with sblock, volume is meaningless. The dimensions are what the airlines are getting at. They want to limit you to a carry-on luggage that they know will fit in the overhead compartments. If volume were important, you could carry on a long thin pool that was 30' long as long it was under the state volume. A ridiculous scenario, I know. But I'm pointing out that volume is not what's important.

    With respect to musical instruments, sblock is correct that the dimensions do not apply to them. They make special exceptions (at least their policy states so) for musical instruments. As long as they fit in the OH, and there happens to be space, you are allowed to carry them on and stow them there.

    Whether or not the flight attendants on duty are aware of those exceptions for musical instruments is a different story.

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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Just got back from Florida where I brought my mandolin and have done so many times and never had a problem. But flying out of Austin on Southwest half the plane is people carrying instruments so it's not even an issue. Coming back sometimes...well that just depends. China seems a different ball of wax. And the only trouble I ever had was on United, but that was a guitar. Luckily the pilot was boarding and offered to store it in the cockpit for me.
    BTW I have an Eastman that is for travel and hot weather. The Pava stays home. And I pay whatever bribe is necessary for the best boarding position possible.

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  33. #44
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    sblock - We seem to be going round in circles here !. The volume of a package is down to L x W X D - that is what the checking 'thingy' is checking - how big it is overall. Whether you decide to use the dimensions or the volume,it = takes up the same spacial volume. Am i correct in that fact ?. My bone of contention is that the airlines choose to use the dimensions,& even though 2 of the 3 dimensions might be far less that the allowed size,if only ONE dimension is oversize,the package won't be allowed on board. IMHO - That's simply stupid.

    Let's take a hypothetical example :- The 'allowed' size of a package or 'whatever' is 10" x 12" x 15" = 1800 cu ins = 1.042 cu.ft

    'Your' package is 8" x 10" x 18" = 1440 cu.ins. = 0.83 cu.ft However,because the 18" dimension is above the allowed 15" dimension,you won't be allowed to take the package on board - even thought the overall 'size' (space taken up),is LESS.

    How can that be sensible ?. I can't explain it any more clearly than that,
    Ivan
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  34. #45
    Registered User liestman's Avatar
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Ivan, nobody here is saying that the airline rules on how they measure carryon bags are sensible. People here are talking about (a) what the airline rules are and (b) what their personal experiences have been with the exception to the general rules that applies to musical instruments.
    John Liestman -
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  35. #46
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Well, I made it to Beijing without an incident. Had the United policy printed out, but didn’t have to use it. When I gave my boarding pass to the gate attendant, she smiled at me and said “Music makes life better “. I smiled and said “yes it does.”

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  37. #47
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: another "flying with my mandolin" thread

    Congratulations, Mark, on your successful trip to Beijing on United Airlines with your mandolin aboard! Everything went as I suspected it would. The good news is that experiences like yours are becoming more and more the norm since the FAA policy was changed a year or so back. We still hear of horror stories, but these are more the exception than the rule now. If only the policies were even more clearly written, and enforced more uniformly across different carriers (particularly internationally), but at least slow and steady progress is being made. I have been traveling with instruments by air for over 40 years now, and things have certainly improved. But I, too, have my share of horror stories. Anyway, I hope your return trip goes as well as your outbound trip, and that your mandolin brings you great enjoyment in China!

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