Mandolin in gypsy jazz: rest stroke/gypsy picking vs alternate pi

[bradeasley]

I'm fairly comfortable/locked-in to alternate picking. The work I'd have to put in to essentially relearn picking for rest stroke/gypsy picking feels like it would be a major set back. I'm curious if anyone would care to share their mandolin experience with either or both picking styles. Does gypsy picking make a major difference for mandolin in the gypsy jazz style? Any examples of mandolin players that use strict rest stroke/gypsy picking? I don't know of any offhand.

[DavidKOS]

Does gypsy picking make a major difference for mandolin in the gypsy jazz style? Any examples of mandolin players that use strict rest stroke/gypsy picking? I don't know of any offhand.

Although I do play Gypsy jazz mandolin, more of my Gypsy jazz experience has been as a guitar player.

However, the picking style is pretty much the same with the obvious differences due to tuning.

I teach workshops on Gypsy jazz and American jazz guitar, and one of the essential features of the Gypsy style is the use of those downstrokes when changing strings.

If you use strict alternate picking you will NOT sound like a Gypsy player, although alternate picking works well for bebop and other jazz styles.

Part of the reason is the history and origin of Gypsy jazz - it was developed to be heard before electric instruments, so the guitar style is based on volume.

Hence the thick picks, use of many downstrokes, and a very aggressive picking technique with free-floating hand and forearm.

When you play bop on a typical electric jazzbox, the amp does the heavy lifting, so you can pick with a very light touch - or use your fingers or thumb - and use alternate picking to great advantage.

Gypsy jazz players though tend to use Selmer model guitars and play quite loudly, and at that volume the downstrokes used when changing strings add to the punch.

Even when using an amplified instrument, a Gypsy jazz guitar player will play with that powerful economy picking style. It is the correct, and really the only correct way to play Gypsy jazz.

Enjoy getting into Gypsy jazz!

Here are some good articles that shed some light on the guitar picking style. It's easy to adapt to mandolin. Much of the picking is also part of the Italian mandolin tradition.

https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...y-jazz-secrets

"you’ll often see fingerings and picking techniques that directly contradict contemporary jazz guitar wisdom. "

"Django used the rest stroke system, as do nearly all other Gypsy guitarists. This style of picking is ideally suited for the acoustic guitar because it allows one to achieve volume, tone, and speed without uncomfortable tension or pain. In a nutshell, Django’s right-hand technique is a flatpick version of the commonly used classical and flamenco guitar technique known as apoyando. The pick version of this technique has all the benefits of the fingerstyle rest stroke: a secure feeling of placement, reduced muscle tension, and a loud, full tone. In addition, the Gypsy rest stroke takes advantage of basic principles of physics by using the weight of the hand instead of the muscles to propel the pick in much the same manner as a hammer falls on a nail. This stroke is completed by letting the pick come to rest on the next adjacent string, hence the name. "

https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/gypsy...s-and-picking/

" Every first stroke on each string is a downstroke and then you continue on the single string with alternate picking. This means that if you have and odd number of notes on a certain string, you have to play two downstrokes in a row. When you play this downstroke and then play a note on a string above, you need to continue with the same movement from your elbow to the higher string. "

https://music.stackexchange.com/ques...sy-jazz-guitar

"Every time a different string is hit, it's always a down stroke. The down stroke will rest on the string above it, hence, the 'rest stroke'. Down strokes are predominant.

The action originates from the wrist. Django's soloing style came mostly out of arpeggios. This is a very difficult technique, different from alternate picking or hybrid picking."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_picking

"The picking technique of gypsy jazz has been described[2] as similar to economy picking, but with the further requirement that when the pattern switches from string to string in either direction, a rest stroke is performed."

http://www.djangolizer.ch/tips_n_tri...icking_en.html

"Beside the rule to stay relaxed, there are three rules for the Gypsy picking:

Rule #1
Make a down stroke, when you change the string.

Rule #2
Play alternate picking, when you stay on a string.
Triplets can be played down-up-down_down-up-down_down-up-down…

Rule #3
The last note of a phrase should be played with a down stroke to accentuate it."

.....Some guitar players use the standard picking for playing Jazz Manouche. I believe, that the authentic Gypsy feeling gets lost."

[bradeasley]

Thank you, David! As always, an insightful and thoughtful response! I'm diving into this information.

Can you point me to any mandolin players that use this picking style? Videos perhaps? I'm curious to hear this picking style in action on a mandolin. Most of the guys I've heard play jazz or approximations of gypsy jazz on mandolin have been alternate pickers.

I understand how volume being a factor influenced the origins of the style, but that's not necessarily the case these days. For instance, I've not run into any issues being drowned out by guitar players on mandolin using alternate picking. And of course, amplification is generally involved with a full-scale gig. That said, I think there is a distinct sound that one achieves with gypsy picking, I've just not heard it on mandolin much.

[DavidKOS]

Thank you, David! As always, an insightful and thoughtful response! I'm diving into this information.

Can you point me to any mandolin players that use this picking style? Videos perhaps? I'm curious to hear this picking style in action on a mandolin. Most of the guys I've heard play jazz or approximations of gypsy jazz on mandolin have been alternate pickers.

I wish I could point out some mandolin players in this style to you...but I really don't know of them, although I am certain they exist.

Most of the gypsy jazz players I know personally and on recordings are guitar, violin, bass and occasionally accordion players. I've played with some mandolinists that know some Gypsy jazz tunes but really are not specialists in the style at all.

I'd steal from the guitarists, since they are the mani driving force in this style of music - with the violin a close second.

Of course violin material would work on mandolin, other than the bowing, which doesn't exactly transfer to picking techniques.

I understand how volume being a factor influenced the origins of the style, but that's not necessarily the case these days. For instance, I've not run into any issues being drowned out by guitar players on mandolin using alternate picking. And of course, amplification is generally involved with a full-scale gig. That said, I think there is a distinct sound that one achieves with gypsy picking, I've just not heard it on mandolin much.

My point was that when Gypsy jazz was formed, in the 30's, the guitar players had to play hard and loud, and the picking style grew out of that need.

Of course today it is different, but I find that even amplified you sound more a pre-WWII pre-electric (after WWII Django usually played amplified) Gypsy jazz player when you play aggressively.

"That said, I think there is a distinct sound that one achieves with gypsy picking, I've just not heard it on mandolin much."

Do you play or listen to much Italian traditional mandolin music?

Italian mandolin tradition was a part of the mix that produced the Maccaferri guitar - there are elements of mandolin design in the Selmer guitar.

Some of the picking techniques were used in playing Italian music, although certainly not like it was done in the jazz context.

[colorado_al]

I play gypsy jazz on mandolin and I don't think it is helpful to adopt the gypsy guitar style for the right hand. Mandolin is already louder than even the loudest manouche guitar and the down pick style of guitar is really used for added volume and speed. I'm able to get as loud an upstroke as down. I find I'm faster and more accurate if I use an alternating pick on mandolin. To me, the key to the gypsy style is in the heavy use of arpeggios more than the right hand style.

[DavidKOS]

I play gypsy jazz on mandolin and I don't think it is helpful to adopt the gypsy guitar style for the right hand. Mandolin is already louder than even the loudest manouche guitar and the down pick style of guitar is really used for added volume and speed. I'm able to get as loud an upstroke as down. I find I'm faster and more accurate if I use an alternating pick on mandolin. To me, the key to the gypsy style is in the heavy use of arpeggios more than the right hand style.

"To me, the key to the gypsy style is in the heavy use of arpeggios more than the right hand style."

Of course this is a big part of playing any jazz, that is knowing the chords of the tune - but Gypsy jazz is often referred to as being "ornamented arpeggio" style, so even more so.

However I disagree about not needing to use Gypsy picking.

Use of strict alternate picking makes you sound much less like a real Gypsy jazz stylist.

"Mandolin is already louder than even the loudest manouche guitar "

No it is not! At least not how loud we play the guitars. I guess it depends on who you hang out with.

Al, do you play a lot of normal swing and bop jazz? I mean not just play a few tunes but really are a jazz mandolinist?

One reason I suggest using the guitar picking style is to help differentiate American jazz styles from Gypsy jazz - the same way that Old Time music is not played the same as Bluegrass.

On the other hand, Gypsy jazz mandolin is a somewhat open field and who am I to make rules for it?

[bradeasley]

David, I agree with you that using the gypsy picking style would make mandolin playing sound more like authentic gypsy jazz guitar playing and that most mandolin players who are playing in this style are using alternate picking. Perhaps that will be my motivation to tackle the challenge. I think it would be worth the effort to get it down just to be one of few doing it proper.

[DavidKOS]

David, I agree with you that using the gypsy picking style would make mandolin playing sound more like authentic gypsy jazz guitar playing and that most mandolin players who are playing in this style are using alternate picking. Perhaps that will be my motivation to tackle the challenge. I think it would be worth the effort to get it down just to be one of few doing it proper.

It's a matter of style.

I think you'll find it rewarding to know how to change your style to make different tunes- or whole genres - come alive.

[colorado_al]

Hey there! I play a lot of Jazz styles and guess I should elaborate for gypsy. My previous response was from my phone, and I don't like to type on it much.
If you're playing solo mandolin, or in a trio or something, it probably is better to use a gypsy picking style to accentuate it.
I normally play in a 6 or 7 piece gypsy band where we have 2 or sometimes 3 guitar players. After a while, things get to sounding a lot the same and I use picking and rhythm techniques to differentiate my sound from the guitars. We already have plenty of La Pompe rhythm going, so I don't feel bound to duplicate that and often play trills and fills, or let my chords ring open, etc. In the context of the full gypsy band, for solos, I try to imitate the violin and clarinet a bit more than the guitar. So while I do play arpeggios, I also slide and bend a bit more than our guitar players do. (Though I'm sure there are many gypsy guitar players who play differently) Also, since the guitar is tuned in 4ths, it is common for players to set their left hand and play down strokes with the right on every string to play the arpeggio, or move a finger or 2. On mandolin, you almost always play 2 notes per string for the same arpeggio, or at least on every other string, depending on what notes you want to include. I find alternate picking works better in this case, and if you practice at it, you can make the up pick sound very similar to the down pick if you want it to.
I do think it is important to know the picking style so you can choose it when you want it, but I don't think you should be bound to it. It can be a great way to lead off a solo, or set off a portion of it, or for harmonizing with your guitar player, etc.
The mandolin has a different voice than the guitar and you should use all aspects of it when you want them.
Not sure if that helps, or makes it more confusing.

PS- You're right that gypsy guitars are quite loud, I guess it really depends on who you play with and their technique. I find that when I gig in acoustic situations, I use my loudest mandolin, with armrest and tone-gard, and it gets super loud when I want it. I also like the tone-gard and armrest because they not only increase the volume on the one end, they give me more flexibility for volume modulation on the quiet end.

[lespaul_79]

Played guitar/mando for 20+ years. Played almost every style.

If you have to choose your battles b/w learning "correct" picking patterns versus correct notes/scales to capture a genre/flavor... I'd focus on correct notes.

IMHO, the flat9/diminished scale/arpeggio on the V chord is... how to capture the Gypsy, Latin, Spanish, Jewish, European flavor. As well as using arpeggios over scales.

The flat9/diminished over a i-V7 change is the key flavor/spice. Just like soy sauce for Asian food, curry for Indian/Thai/etc, fish sauce for Vietnamese, or BBQ sauce in the good ole South.

Relearning how to pick sounds like a huge pain... unless your dedicating your life to that style.
I'm just amazed how many 100's of gypsy resources, youtubes, etc. that emphasize the "correct picking". But finding resources on different approaches (enclosures, chromatics, etc.), to a i-V7 change using the flat9/diminished riff seems... like a hidden gypsy secret on the web.

For me, and the trust I have in my own ears, the correct notes (oh and that learning melodies thang...) are going to capture the flavor.... much more.

Here's a great resource. Cheap and you can transpose to different keys.
It's for guitar, but lotsa key concepts here.
https://www.soundslice.com/store/10-...tar-exercises/

I'm still learning this style but fwiw I tend to listen to clarinet players for inspiration (since I'm too old and lazy). Maybe if I started when I was 20 y/o I'd be more inspired to work on the "correct" picking.

[Mandolin Cafe]

John McGann shared a Django lesson for mandolin a considerable time ago that's housed on the Cafe of interest. Always found what he had to say to be very wise.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/django1.html

[DavidKOS]

.....where we have 2 or sometimes 3 guitar players.
.... In the context of the full gypsy band, for solos, I try to imitate the violin and clarinet a bit more than the guitar.

That makes a lot of sense to me, since the guitar parts are covered.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

[DavidKOS]

IMHO, the flat9/diminished scale/arpeggio on the V chord is... how to capture the Gypsy, Latin, Spanish, Jewish, European flavor. As well as using arpeggios over scales.

The flat9/diminished over a i-V7 change is the key flavor/spice.

...
I'm just amazed how many 100's of gypsy resources, youtubes, etc. that emphasize the "correct picking". But finding resources on different approaches (enclosures, chromatics, etc.), to a i-V7 change using the flat9/diminished riff seems... like a hidden gypsy secret on the web.

Another good point - and that use of the dim7th chord a half step above the V is a great way to get that 7b9 sound and use harmonic minor, which a lot of Gypsy jazz tunes use.

Some of the Gypsy jazz guitar sites mention the diminished use, but you do have to find it.

[lespaul_79]

Thanks DavidKOS.

Yes, it's mind numbing how much is out there on "correct picking"... and how hidden using the harmonic minor/flat9/diminished over a i-V7 change is. A critical change/crossroads to master that gypsy flavor.

It's a total conspiracy to get folks to focus on the correct picking technique and not to master a i-V7 with a flat9 run. Totally weird thing about all the gypsy lessons I've seen. They are out there, but a fraction compared to other techniques hammered down on these poor gypsy pickers.

I wish there were 100 more like this one Magnus teaches at around 5:30ish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPwwHmjvfs