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Thread: super glue stained spruce

  1. #1
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default super glue stained spruce

    I made a bad choice it seems in gluing the abalone in a 45 style guitar with cyanoacrylate glue. Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	169344. The thin super glue bleed out into the spruce top. I know this has happened before without this problem. I guess it could have been the accelerator. Maybe the B/W/B perfling strip bled?
    It has left a amber-ish stain that gets worse when wet.
    I have sanded enough to have cleared it if it was on top. Some tinting would hide it I think, but this top was to be left clear. That may have to change slightly.
    I was wondering if anyone else has dealt with this problem successfully?

  2. #2
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    One other thing I might try on a scrap is try to make the same effect/stain and then try to thin it down with acetone or the like. Of coarse this might just make it bigger.

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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Done this before. Unfortunately, it's deep into the wood. It seems certain pieces (within the same species) do it while others don't. I do a wash coat of shellac around and inside the ring cavities before gluing. The end grain inside the cavity is the culprit that wicks it up into the wood. Sand the shellac off and you're good to go. It's very frustrating to have this happen and ruin a good top.

    Stay away from acetone, it will make your black rings bleed into the wood. Don't ask how I know this.

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  5. #4
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Quote Originally Posted by David Houchens View Post
    I was wondering if anyone else has dealt with this problem successfully?
    Not the kind of success you're looking for, but I did the next one with hide glue...

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  7. #5
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Thanks sliebers and John. I was afraid of that. I sure won't be doing it that way again. I really hope I can hide it with shellac seallar and mild amber tint. Might end up with a nice Gibson sunburst on it.

  8. #6

    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    I hate to say it but that seems to be a right of passage for us luthier nerds. Did you seal the channels with shellac or hide glue before gluing the sections in? We go to such lengths to get ancient air dried crazy thirsty top woods and then they seem to suck everything up into the capillaries. I once got some nitro on an African Blackwood bridge and the black oils traveled all the way to the sound hole....

    'Burst D45s are cool!!!

    It looks like nice rosewood showing through on the back!

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  10. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Isn't that why they created bursts?
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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  12. #8
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Martin made some guitars with a burst, I saw it on a few D-35`s anyway, I don`t know if they were special orders or not but I don`t think so...So burst it...

    Willie

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  14. #9
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    I'm afraid solvents might only drive the color deeper into the wood.

    The old-time cabinet maker who is my finish guy and I are currently dealing with color bleed on a guitar that was left in its case on a Florida porch on a hot, humid day. The dye from the case lining leached all the way through the top finish. Attempts to touch up have been unsuccessful. We are going to have to refinish the whole top. Like yours, we may have to sunburst it. We have considered bleach, but we realize that it would be risky. If we try it, we will have to test it in a very small area.

    Another reason for not using CA for anything except filling fingerboard divots, shimming antique nuts, and installing inlays on dark surfaces. The longer I work on instruments, the less CA I use . . .

    I have never understood the purpose of accelerator.

    If there has not been a similar problem on the purfling and inlay around the top's perimeter, I suppose you could dig out the soundhole inlay, graft in new spruce all the way from the edge of the sound hole to the outer soundhole ring, and redesign the new inlay to cover the bleed around where the outer soundhole ring is now. Or change it over to a Tony Rice style large soundhole.

    If the instrument is a commission, your choices are limited by what the customer will accept. Worst case would be that you will have to re-top the guitar.

    I wish you luck on finding a solution. When a job goes wrong in lutherie, the results can be pretty hard to deal with. And the customers wonder why we charge more than a fast food worker's wage [but less than an auto mechanic!!].

    At least it's not a pre-war Martin 45, Loar, or flathead RB.

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  16. #10
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    I just came up with a sneaky but elegant solution. A lot of work and a bit tricky to do with the top already assembled to the body, but it would produce good looking results, and is certainly less labor than re-topping the guitar or "forcing" a finish solution.

    Rout out the whole rosette area to a depth of .060" to just outside of the outer ring of the rosette, graft in new spruce, and bind the soundhole with .060" or .090" ivoroid a la Larson Brothers or Nick Lucas. Do it in such a way that the inside diameter of the soundhole binding will be 4".

    Reference your rosette rings to the outside diameter of the soundhole binding. That would make it possible to maintain a 4" soundhole diameter, but would enlarge the diameter of the rosette enough to extend past the stained area. If necessary, you can fudge on your rosette proportions very slightly to make everything work. Reinforce underneath as necessary.

    If you've saved enough scrap from when you originally cut out the top, you might have enough stock from the original piece of lumber to have an exact color match for your graft.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jul-10-2018 at 11:03pm.

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  18. #11
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post

    ...Rout out the whole rosette area to a depth of .060" to just outside of the outer ring of the rosette...
    I've done something like that a couple of times, once on a restoration, once to correct a rosette "screw-up". I started to suggest it, but then I looked at the picture and saw how much color there is outside of the outer ring of the rosette. It would take a big rosette to remove all of the color.
    BTW, I didn't bind the sound hole, just "doubled" the spruce by cutting the top to about half thickness then gluing the spruce patch. It's easier to explain with a few pictures...
    I went from this:
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    to this...
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    to this... (no routing, archtop)
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    to this...
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    Ultimately, to this, but this doesn't really apply here (sunburst)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    As I said, the limiting factor on the OP guitar is the extent of the color outside of the rosette, but if you can get away with using a bigger rosette, this might be an option.

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  20. #12
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Using the thicker .CA glue helps.

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  22. #13
    Registered User Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    I've done something like that a couple of times, once on a restoration, once to correct a rosette "screw-up".
    Thank you John, you are truly amazing. I really appreciate the fact that you document your work with pictures and share them here. I learn a lot from your posts.

    Best wishes,

    Bob
    Purr more, hiss less.

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  24. #14
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Thanks for all the thoughts. I really hate to make the rosette too large but it my be the best option.It's a 00-45 so the sound hole is less than 4" and I space my rings fairly close so I could increase the diameters a bit without looking odd.
    If I route out and overlay I can still keep the same size hole I think without binding the inside.. I'm gonna ponder this a few more days before I make a move.
    It looks like nice rosewood showing through on the back! Click image for larger version. 

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    James, almost sounds as if you've seen this wood before.

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  26. #15

    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    This happened on what I considered my most important commission....a 12-fret dreadnought in style 42 for Norman Blake. It was an Engelmann top, and we had discussed every detail, including toner on the top. Before the 'accident', Norman had decided against using any toner. I finished the guitar and didn't tell him, I just presented it. He downplayed the discoloration, particularly after playing the guitar. That was 1993. In the ensuing years, the discoloration faded away. After that, I only use Duco or hot hide glue on rosettes.
    John

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  28. #16
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    What about using super glue to stain the rest of the area to match? An inelegant solution, but it might work.
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

  29. #17
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: super glue stained spruce

    Well I've gotten the go ahead to sunburst the top. Should take care of the bleed out and a little extra money to boot.

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