What mando chords are these?

[Nick Royal]

A friend of mine was singing a song, and playing guitar. He was calling out chords for a pianist to join him. Such as: G+2; A+2; Em+2
What chords are the on the mandolin?
thanks,
Nick

[Mark Gunter]

Was he saying "G plus 2" or was he saying "G sus 2" - can sound alike.

Gadd2 Means you take a G chord, which consists of the notes G, B and D, and you add the second note from G major scale (major second interval) - that would be an A note. So wherever you play a G chord, using all four strings, one of the notes will usually be doubled ... drop the doubled note and add an A note.

Gsus2 Means that you lower the major third of the chord (B note in a G chord) to the major second (A), so you drop out the B note and play an A note in its place.

Example:

G chord = 0-0-2-3 (Notes are G, D, B & G)
Gsus2 = 0-0-0-3 (Notes are G, D, A & G)
Gadd2 = 0-0-2-5 (Notes are G, D, B & A)

[Mark Gunter]

A chord example:

A major chord is made of A, C#, E.
Major second in an A scale is B.

A major = 2-2-4-5 (Notes are A, E, C#, A)
Asus2 = 2-2-2-5 (Notes are A, E, B, A)
Aadd2 = 2-2-4-7 (Notes are A, E, C#, B)

[Mark Gunter]

I've never used any add 2 chords, but sus 2 chords (as well as sus 4) are more common, suspending a chord adds tension, and pedaling back and forth between a chord and its suspended form is a great rhythmic technique for some tunes.

Normally, when you write a chord, showing a plus sign as you have done means to sharpen the interval ... so G+2 would mean to add an A# to the G chord, but I think you are trying to write what you heard, rather than what you saw written? "G plus two" or "G sus two"?

I think a chord that adds the second interval can be called either an add2 or add9 chord, and would be written that way (Gadd2 or Gadd9).

When considering two octaves of G major, the A note is the second and ninth notes.

I recently wrote a little article on using numbers in music, soon to be updated, but you can read a copy by clicking the black rectangle below (that will open a PDF).



In the end, without both hearing the names that were actually called out by the guitarist and the sound of the chords they were playing, all I can do is guess at an answer.

[Jim Broyles]

My guess is the guy wanted (2) or add9 chords. You could play them like this:

Gadd9: 0025

Aadd9: 4745 or 2247

Em(2) (which I would simply call Em9): 0022

[Jim Broyles]

The problem with these chord names is that there's no universal nomenclature, so you get 2, add2, add9. You'll also sometimes see 'sus' when they still want the third. On paper it's even worse because some will write +2, which, to me, means a major chord with a raised 5th and the 2 in it, and they only want the 2 added.

[Jim Broyles]

I also believe, (and practice) that the + only means augmented, and if I want a raised anything other than the 5th, I call it '#', as in E7#9, not E7+9.

[Mark Gunter]

I also believe, (and practice) that the + only means augmented, and if I want a raised anything other than the 5th, I call it '#', as in E7#9, not E7+9.

Above when I wrote "sharpen the interval" it should have properly been written, "augment the interval". In effect, it amounts to the same thing.

E7+9 = 1, 3, 5, b7, #9

I'm with Jim on the sometimes confusing nomenclature. In the case of OP, it's not entirely clear what he's asking about.

[Kevin Stueve]

all this talk about augmenting an interval reminds me of an old band joke, you know what you call two piccolos playing the same note?



augmented unison

[Mark Gunter]

E7+ is simply shorthand for E7+5, called an E7augmented ... the 5th is understood

E7+9 is E7augmented9

But that's just the way I was taught, you can encounter other meanings depending on how the composer/transcriber understands these things.

[Jim Broyles]

E7+ is simply shorthand for E7+5, called an E7augmented ... the 5th is understood

E7+9 is E7augmented9

But that's just the way I was taught, you can encounter other meanings depending on how the composer/transcriber understands these things.

In my experience, a stand-alone + means augmented; it isn't shorthand for +5. It means #5. To raise a note we use #. In jazz, even the raised 5th is call 'sharp" as in C7#9#5. Also, 'b' can mean diminished as in Em7b5.

[Mark Gunter]

OK Jim, like you said before, people use strange nomenclature sometimes. All I'm sharing here is what I was taught, and what's in my experience, and not requiring anyone to come to the same understanding. My understanding is that it is shorthand for +5 ...

E7+ actually uses two shorthand devices ... the "7" is shorthand for "dominant 7th" and the "+" is shorthand for "augmented 5th"

The plus sign following a chord name always means "augmented 5th" unless a different interval is specified. Though it is written as G+ it is the fifth interval that is augmented. G+, G+5 and G#5 all mean the same thing. G+9, however, would indicate a sharp 9th with no augmented fifth.

I'm not the only person who was taught that way. As an example, in his book, The Mandolin Chord Bible, Tobe Richards shows three E7+9 chords: (1) 1-0-2-3 [1, b7, 5, #9]; (2) 4-6-5-3 [5, 3, b7, #9]; (3) 0-6-5-7 [#9, 3, b7, 5]

Since there can be disagreement on nomenclature, you are right and welcome to disagree about augmented fifth being "understood" and disagree with my "shorthand" comment, but that does not negate the fact there there are many who understand these things the way I do. After all, this is just a matter of explanation and a system of notation, it's not about making music but rather about ways to understand and discuss music.

Intervals can be augmented, specific notes can be raised or lowered, sharped or flatted, in my understanding. When naming the note as an interval in a chord, there is more than one way to go. The chart below uses the key of C Major to illustrate augmented and diminished intervals.

[Mark Gunter]

The chart uploaded in my last post didn't give the actual names of the notes for the diminished and augmented intervals, so here's a revised image.



Additional: In my understanding, a diminished interval is a half step or semitone below a minor interval or a perfect interval. An augmented interval is a half step or semitone above a major or perfect interval. In the chart above, the diminished fifth would be Gb, and the augmented fourth would be F#.

A chord, C+ would be the C chord with an augmented 5th, rather than a perfect 5th, interval.

[Jim Broyles]

Didn't mean to imply that you are wrong, just what my experience has been. No wonder the music/instrument forums are replete with theory discussions!

[Mark Gunter]

No wonder the music/instrument forums are replete with theory discussions!

It's because there are so many layers to the onion

We don't write Cbb7 (Cb chord with a flatted 7th), we write Cb7

To the beginner, C7 just means, "I put my fingers here to make this chord"
An advanced student will understand, "Add a flat 7th scale note to make this chord"
Those who delve deeper can learn that the "7" in C7 can be called
- a flat 7th note
- a minor 7th interval from the root
- a dominant 7th
and why ...

I think for most music theory geeks, + means augmented, and it's followed by the number of the augmented interval unless that interval is the 5th (which alters the base triad, making an augmented triad). None of which directly really helps you play good music. A lot of it has to do with perspective. It's like the blind guys trying to describe the elephant.

[Jim Broyles]

Seventh seems to be the only degree with such anomalytical (my own word) properties. With no modifier it means "Flat 7." If you don't alter it, you call it "Major 7th." If a chord is a "minor 7th" it's a minor triad with the flat 7th. If you play the natural seventh on a minor triad, it's called "Minor major seventh." If a minor chord has the b7 and a flatted fifth, it's called "Half diminished." If you call a chord a "diminished 7th," you have to double-flat the seventh. Weird, I tell you!

[Kevin Stueve]

in guitar vernacular E5 or G5 means a "power chord" -- a chord containing only the 1 and the 5. Or so I was taught. Yet another oddity

[Mark Gunter]

in guitar vernacular E5 or G5 means a "power chord" -- a chord containing only the 1 and the 5. Or so I was taught. Yet another oddity

Yeah, the geeks call that a dyad - a two note chord - as opposed to a triad, in addition to a "power chord." It's a sort of "perfect" chord, neither minor nor major, it could be used in place of either. I think that holds true for the chord symbol C5 on any instrument, since you don't add5 to a chord, the perfect fifth is already a part of the common, unaltered chord structure.

[Nevin]

I have always had trouble with the idea of a half diminished chord. To me it is a m7b5. If you b a m7, it isn't a 7 anymore it is a 6.

[sblock]

I have always had trouble with the idea of a half diminished chord. To me it is a m7b5. If you b a m7, it isn't a 7 anymore it is a 6.

Well, it depends on the musical context! A dominant seventh chord (commonly called a "seventh chord", like A7, E7, B7, etc.) is the same thing as a "major minor seventh", that is, a major chord triad with a minor seventh note (b7) added. Now, if you choose to flat this minor seventh note (the m7), you wind up with a flatted dominant seventh, and you would call that a doubly flatted major seventh (bb7 = bm7).

The diminished chord is called "diminished" because it flats every single note of a dominant seventh chord (except the tonic, that is). That means it will have the tonic, a flatted third (m3=b3), a flatted fifth (b5), and flatted dominant seventh (bb7). That last note is not considered to be a 6th, from a harmonic perspective (but it's enharmonic with it -- i.e., the same pitch in 12TET), since the way we obtained it was to flat the dominant seventh. We obtained all the notes of this chord by flatting them.

Similarly, we can construct, again from a dominant seventh chord, a new chord with the tonic, a flatted third (m3=b3), a flatted 5th (b5), and the usual dominant 7th (b7). This chord is commonly called "half diminished" because we don't diminish everything! You can also think of it as a minor seventh chord (1, b3, b7) but with a flatted fifth, i.e., as a minor seventh flat five (m7b5).

Note that no sixths were harmed in the making of these chords!

[DougC]

I'm gonna open a nice cold beer and congratulate myself because I understood this stuff. A year ago this would have been all gibberish to my poor brain. Yikes. Still I'm not confident I could actually use the information. That's the next step. This conversation alone would take a bit of study.

And Nick, is there a tune name that you remember? It may be a clue to understanding the chords.

Also I noticed that he was giving directives to a pianist not a mandolin player.

[Mark Gunter]

It's worth noting that a diminished chord has two diminished intervals - the diminished 5th, and the diminished 7th. A half-diminished chord has one diminished interval - the diminished 5th.

If you have a look at the charts I posted, you see a diminished interval is made by lowering a minor interval by a hafl step, or lowering a perfect interval by a half step. Lowering the 5th by a semitone yields a diminished 5th, and lowering the minor 7th (b7) by a semitone yields a diminished 7th (bb7) which is the harmonic equivalent of a major 6th in 12TET.

[Mark Gunter]

Diminished chord = Root, minor third, diminished 5th, diminished 7th

[jefflester]

Any chance the guitar player just had a capo on the 2nd fret and was calling out the open chord shapes he was playing and the "+2" meant up two half steps, equivalent to the frets? G+2 = A

[EdHanrahan]

Diminished chord = Root, minor third, diminished 5th, diminished 7th

Well... uhm... yeah... maybe... sortta... but maybe not quite...

I wouldn't have recognized this common (mis)usage until I started on piano several years ago, but:

1 - A "proper" diminished chord is a triad (only 3 notes) built on the 7th degree of the major scale. In the key of C, that would be Bdim = B D F. Relative to a B-major triad, that would be the root, minor 3rd, and diminished 5th, a/k/a the root plus the next two minor thirds above it, each being a 3-fret gap.

2 - In common usage, guitarists and mandolinists, and the sheet music & chord charts that they play from, often don't differentiate between a "pure" diminished chord and its related "diminished 7th", formed by adding one more diminished 3rd on top, AND that leaves a nice uniform gap of yet a fourth diminished third on top of that, to get up to the root's octave.

The beauty of such a nice symmetrical 4-note chord is that you can:
A) properly name it after any of the 4 notes that comprise it, and;
B) slide it up the neck and find the same chord every three frets. (Makes for great "mood music" for when Snidely Whiplash is tying Daisybelle to the railroad tracks!)

Frankly, I haven't really found a case where a dim7 chord couldn't be aurally substituted for the straight dim because in context, at least to me, they pretty much sound the same. So maybe this branch of the conversation is moot?

And here's a real piece of trivia that came from my piano studies: That 3-note Bdim chord (B D F) noted above is really a G7 chord minus the root! So, IMHO, a 3-note dim chord can be freely substituted for that key's 5 (dominant 7th) chord, and sound perfectly normal in context. Maybe not critical to know for mandolin playing, but sure comes in handy on a keyboard!