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Thread: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

  1. #1

    Default The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Here's a newly published study:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/07/03/355933

    From the conclusion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetta Kwailing Wong, Kelvin F. H. Lui, Ken H. M. Yip, Alan C.-N. Wong
    Overall, the current study shows that AP continues to be learnable in adulthood.

    The results challenge the notion that AP is only possible for few individuals with particular genes and training within the critical period, in that AP acquisition does not seem to be a rigid developmental process limited to a specific time period in childhood.

    The extent to which one acquires AP may be better explained in terms of the amount and type of experience.

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    Registered User Michael Neverisky's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    But, why? The few people I know who posses absolute pitch, including my mother-in-law, regard it as a liability more than an asset. Relative pitch, the ability to hear and identify intervals, on the other hand, is an essential skill for a musician and can be learned without a doubt.

  4. #3

    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky View Post
    But, why? The few people I know who posses absolute pitch, including my mother-in-law, regard it as a liability more than an asset. Relative pitch, the ability to hear and identify intervals, on the other hand, is an essential skill for a musician and can be learned without a doubt.
    Yes, that's a great question.

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    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I am addicted to tuners. I can tell if something is out of tune when I strum but cant tell what. I'm envious of those who can just know which string is off when they strum and then just tune it to pitch without looking.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

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    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Tuning in general is an absolute pitch

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    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I see what you did there.
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Here is an article about how one man did it.

    https://medium.com/@maxdeutsch/how-i...d-7e2e78b8c26b

    One thing to remember is that, as with most things you memorize, the memory will fade if you don’t review. So you have to commit to learning AND maintaining the skill.

    I have two sons who had similar musical training. Both started on violin at three years. Neither had any special talent at the start. Both are accomplished performers. One of them developed absolute pitch just by being a musician.

    He took up bass at around age 12. That’s when I noticed that he would tune each string to pitch without any aides or even using the other strings for reference. He also played in tune right away, which is hard on fretless instruments. Now, he says that when he hears a note, he compares it to a note on his bass that he mentally “hears”. The notes he has played on his bass have all been memorized.

    I don’t know if it helps his performance, but he says it does help with transcription and composition. He can compose a melody in his head and then just write it down. He has never said it was a liability, but he finds listening to music that is not in A440 pitch to be irritating.

    It is not a high priority skill, but something handy for a person who wants to make his living in music.
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    For the rest of the world = perfect pitch...........

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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    A (now late) friend of mine was taking a music exam as part of his teacher training course. The task was to score out a musical piece and play it in front of the examiner. He spent a couple of weeks writing out a ragtime piece which he intended to play on guitar but, because the nut on his old Yamaha needed attention he played it with a capo on the first fret.

    When he finished the examiner said "I'm sorry but I didn't undstand that" - he couldn't follow the music as my friend had played it a semitone higher than he'd written it and the examiner had perfect pitch.

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    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I hate to be negative, but the study found that "Within the training period, 14% of the participants were able to name twelve pitches at 90% accuracy or above, a performance level comparable with typical AP possessors." This implies that 86% of the respondents were unable to do this.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  15. #11

    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post
    I hate to be negative, but the study found that "Within the training period, 14% of the participants were able to name twelve pitches at 90% accuracy or above, a performance level comparable with typical AP possessors." This implies that 86% of the respondents were unable to do this.
    True, but the idea that the a majority of people could acquire the ability is based on an extrapolation in the published paper:

    Quote Originally Posted by The study authors
    Exploratory extrapolation analyses suggest that 39.5% and 58.1% of the participants would acquire AP if the training lasted for 60 and 180 hours respectively, suggesting the potential for the majority of the participants to acquire AP.

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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    ie.. 50% +1 individual..
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I have found over time that I can hear when it's barely out of tune and I can sometimes even tune it to really super close to right on without using a tuner. So I believe that some kind of perfect pitch can be accomplished. But people who can't understand music played a half-tone from what is written have a mental disability of some kind.

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    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Weird thing is when I just put on all new strings and just tighten up each string I'm surprisingly close to being in tune when I check to tune it up. But then later when I hear a chord off, its hard for me to pick out which string it is right away like some folks can. But when I do figure it out, sometimes I go back and forth flat and sharp awhile so I give up and keep a tuner on my head stock.

    But the thing I do most that really gets to me is turning the wrong tuner button for the string I'm trying to tune. Not sure if that means I'm a relative or absolute clutz...
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    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I am always skeptical about any scientific research paper that starts with the premise that something is "widely believed". It may be widely believed within a limited defined group (as is mentioned in the early part of this paper), but often it is just a straw man argument. Some scientists thrive on trying to disprove common beliefs, thus proving the superiority of scientific thought processes. In fact, this study concluded what is more likely the common belief, IMO, that most anyone who wants to learn to recognize and remember specific auditory pitches can do so, at any age. Heck, after having no desire to do so for most of my life, I did learn to recognize and remember the E(2) pitch in A440 tuning in my early 50s. The desire to do so came about because I took a job at a music store, tuning guitars every day. It was not hard at all because I had the desire and lots of practice. It wasn't necessary to learn other pitches, but it was just as easy to learn the standard A and D pitches for a guitar. I'm not very good at it now, because I don't get much practice.
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I have developed a pretty good sense of pitch over the years. Close to perfect pitch (+/-10 cents) when tuning. I can generally tell when something is not tuned to A440. Past that, I don't really notice songs that were recorded sharp/flat.

    The funny thing is, my pitch is MUCH better now than when I regularly played instruments. I have no doubt that it came from tuning so many instruments. It would be my guess that anyone can do it with enough practice.
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch


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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I started violin in 1975 started playing in advanced orchestra in the performing arts school within a year, we didn't have tuners then the first violinist played the a and everyone tuned from her a. That really helps you learn pitch. I do use a tuner but I can tell when a string goes out and which one it is. I would say I have a good relative pitch.

    I think you are born with perfect pitch and it can't be learned. I had a stand partner that was born with perfect pitch, we used to test him all the time the first year we meet, he was always saying which person in the orchestra was always out of tune, it can be a curse in away
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    I don't have perfect pitch,& never did have - but - i can tell if any of my instruments are even a fraction flat or sharp,as i suspect most of us can. Over time,we can't help but become familiar with the sound of our instruments when they're spot on,& if anything deviates from that,we can usually tell,much in the same way that we can tell if our cars are running a tad fast or slow on the timing.

    I think that we unconciously form mental 'base lines' against which we compare certain things, & that helps us to know when something's 'slipped'. For instance,yesterday,when i played my Ellis "A" style,it was in tune with itself,but it didn't sound 'right'. I checked the tuning & it was maybe 1/4 of a tone down,mostly due to the very warm & relatively humid weather that we've been having for 3 weeks now,& that despite being in their cases !,
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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    A (now late) friend of mine was taking a music exam as part of his teacher training course. The task was to score out a musical piece and play it in front of the examiner. He spent a couple of weeks writing out a ragtime piece which he intended to play on guitar but, because the nut on his old Yamaha needed attention he played it with a capo on the first fret.

    When he finished the examiner said "I'm sorry but I didn't undstand that" - he couldn't follow the music as my friend had played it a semitone higher than he'd written it and the examiner had perfect pitch.
    A similar experience I had with an organist, who had perfect pitch. He didn't seem to be able to play on historical pipe organs, most of which over here are tuned one half note higher than A/440 Hz. As a pipe organ maker/voicer I get asked quite frequently, if I had perfect pitch (which I don not) - mostly by people with hardly any knowledge of the trade. Perfect pitch seems to be a romantic idea and more of a handicap than anything else.

    Does it help tuning? I believe not; from my experience tuning is a technical rather than an artistic matter (except for pianos, where tuning is part of the voicing), where you can't beat electronic tuners.
    So where does perfect pitch help anybody? In singing? Do all great singers have perfect pitch? BTW my dog has perfect pitch - it recognizes our approaching car immediately.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    A (now late) friend of mine was taking a music exam as part of his teacher training course. The task was to score out a musical piece and play it in front of the examiner. He spent a couple of weeks writing out a ragtime piece which he intended to play on guitar but, because the nut on his old Yamaha needed attention he played it with a capo on the first fret.

    When he finished the examiner said "I'm sorry but I didn't undstand that" - he couldn't follow the music as my friend had played it a semitone higher than he'd written it and the examiner had perfect pitch.
    Which means that after learning to have perfect pitch you have to learn to have transposed pitch * to cancel it out.

    (*) aka in-ear capo or movable cochlea
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  33. #22

    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    My tinnitus seems to be about a G when I have checked it. I have not tried to use it as a pitch reference yet.

  34. #23
    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Absolute pitch would nice to turn on and off, but it's far from necessary or even helpful in practice.

    More interesting, to me, is that people that claim to be, and act, tone-deaf can learn to play and sing in tune. My mother taught violin for decades, and one student, an adult who loved the sound of the viola, struggled for years to reliably recognize pitches. But she eventually was able to play viola decently in tune, and more satisfying was that her husband happily reported she now sung in tune at church.

    Given that essentially everyone can recognize simple tunes it seems clear music is roughly as old as language---a capacity for appreciating music having been selected for. But like language, although we all learn some level of decent speaking, reading and writing, much less creative writing, are learned skills. So with music--all can find meaning in it but it tales practice to make music. Still, the research suggests everyone can make some degree of progress and increase their understanding and appreciation of music along with learning to play an instrument.
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  36. #24

    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Haywood View Post
    I am always skeptical about any scientific research paper that starts with the premise that something is "widely believed". It may be widely believed within a limited defined group (as is mentioned in the early part of this paper), but often it is just a straw man argument.
    I disagree. Generally a scientific study includes a review of previous studies. The peers who review your study will be familiar with those studies and would frown upon a misrepresentation. There are occasionally scandals in research, but it isn’t the norm.

    Anyway, here’s what Wikipedia, the arbiter of all things widely believed, has to say: “Those with absolute pitch may train their relative pitch, but there are no reported cases of an adult obtaining absolute pitch ability through musical training; adults who possess relative pitch but do not already have absolute pitch can learn "pseudo-absolute pitch" and become able to identify notes in a way that superficially resembles absolute pitch.[8] Moreover, training pseudo-absolute pitch requires considerable motivation, time, and effort, and learning is not retained without constant practice and reinforcement.[9]”
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  38. #25

    Default Re: The majority of adults can learn to have absolute pitch

    During a plane flight, my son, Sam, who does not have absolute pitch, and I were playing with an AP training game ap. I did not start doing anything musical until I was 13. He started at three. Also, I have a poor memory. He did a lot better than me.

    There are several apps that do this kind of training, if you want to try it.

    I heard once that the New England Conservatory teaches some kind of absolute pitch to its students, and that they use a “fixed do” Sol feige method. But I haven’t confirmed this.
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