Closed Chords come Last?

[LastMohican]

I played for awhile then laid off for a long time. Started playing again a few months ago and, for the most part, I'm about back to to where I was before laying off (message here...DON'T LAY OFF!).

But, when I evaluate my progress from the time I started playing, there is absolutely no question that moving up and down the neck playing closed (chop) chords is developing the slowest. And, it's really pretty frustrating because this is really the fundamental skill required to play along with others, especially if playing Bluegrass.

And, I work on it every day. It's doubly frustrating now becuase I'm committed to the method of changing closed chords where you keep the pinky planted but you just relocate the two interior fingers (say moving from a closed G to t a closed D). This is not how I started so it's a whole new realm of "muscle memory", trying to get where it comes naturally.

So, I'm curious...is this the progression a lot of you have also experienced, especially those that are focusing on bluegrass?

Thanks. Enjoy your weekdend!

[Roger Moss]

I guess I'm lucky there. When this is what you want, closed chords start to fall behind...

[Jon Hall]

Suggestions I make to my students are: to learn three note movable chords before attempting the four note chords and when learning four note chords, move up the neck and play in the keys of A and Bb because the frets are closer together.

[bigskygirl]

I played for awhile then laid off for a long time. Started playing again a few months ago and, for the most part, I'm about back to to where I was before laying off (message here...DON'T LAY OFF!).

But, when I evaluate my progress from the time I started playing, there is absolutely no question that moving up and down the neck playing closed (chop) chords is developing the slowest. And, it's really pretty frustrating because this is really the fundamental skill required to play along with others, especially if playing Bluegrass.

And, I work on it every day. It's doubly frustrating now becuase I'm committed to the method of changing closed chords where you keep the pinky planted but you just relocate the two interior fingers (say moving from a closed G to t a closed D). This is not how I started so it's a whole new realm of "muscle memory", trying to get where it comes naturally.

So, I'm curious...is this the progression a lot of you have also experienced, especially those that are focusing on bluegrass?

Thanks. Enjoy your weekdend!

While 4 finger chords are a nice tool to have I wouldn’t consider it a fundamental requirement to be able to jam.

I generally only use 2 and 3 finger chords and I play in BG jams a lot. One can chop with all the strings muted...it’s my go to chord at times...

Just spend some time with the 4 finger chords, you don’t even need to have a pick, just sit on couch while watching tv and practice changing - it’s not an easy thing and you said you’ve laid off for awhile so it will take time to get it.

I find when I’m in a jam with other mandolins and they are all using the 4 finger shape I use it as an opportunity to explore and develop other ways of backup.

[Chuck Leyda]

I can play the 4 finger chop, it's what I've always done (although I don't leave my pinky I switch to the three finger C shape).

On the Artistworks site Mike Marshall suggested that I was getting too much treble in my chop. I've been experimenting with 2 and 3 note chop chords using the lower strings. I've been trying to really improve my chop It's fun. Angle of attack, timing, sweet spot, and pop all seem to matter more than whether you're using 2, 3, or 4 fingers. I never really paid much attention to that...thinking that once I have the 4 finger chop down on the 2 & 4 I'm done. I was wrong and now I dedicate a portion of my practice time to getting the big chop with minimal effort. I have a lot to work on!

Here's a fellow showing a few 2 and 3 finger chop chords.

[LastMohican]

I guess I'm lucky there. When this is what you want, closed chords start to fall behind...

I feel sorry for his mandolin!

[HonketyHank]

I guess I'm lucky there. When this is what you want, closed chords start to fall behind...

Thanks for that video. I always wondered how in the heck folks wore the finish off under their strings. Now I know.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I guess I'm lucky there. When this is what you want, closed chords start to fall behind...

There are a lot of negatives involved with getting older. Knowing that those days are gone is at least some consolation.

[Cochiti Don]

Yes, I just discovered the plant the pinky thing and I’ve been playing for awhile. Thanks

[Kevin Winn]

"Plant the pinky" thing? Can anyone elaborate (or post a link)?

[Charlie Bernstein]

While 4 finger chords are a nice tool to have I wouldn’t consider it a fundamental requirement to be able to jam.

I generally only use 2 and 3 finger chords and I play in BG jams a lot. One can chop with all the strings muted...it’s my go to chord at times...

Just spend some time with the 4 finger chords, you don’t even need to have a pick, just sit on couch while watching tv and practice changing - it’s not an easy thing and you said you’ve laid off for awhile so it will take time to get it.

I find when I’m in a jam with other mandolins and they are all using the 4 finger shape I use it as an opportunity to explore and develop other ways of backup.

I think LM was describing three-finger chords.

Anyhow, I'd never heard of closed chords, but it sounds like they're chords that don't include any open strings. On guitar, that's most of them. And yup, chopping muted strings helps me overcome a myriad of sins.

[Phil Goodson]

Yes, I just discovered the plant the pinky thing and I’ve been playing for awhile. Thanks

I presume you're talking about putting the pinky down first, when you're moving from the 4 finger G to the 4 finger D?

Yeah. I'm a chord guy (chords always come easier for me than melody), but I found that G to D transition one of the most difficult to develop.
Thinking of the strings 2,3,4 in terms of its being a 3 finger chord played without using your pinky helps. Make that form and then put the pinkie down on the first string. After a while, you can then just move the pinky along with the other changes.

But it takes a while for the fingers to remember all that.

Funny, but after doing all that and making the 4 finger chords pretty automatic, I'm finding that I prefer to use them less now, for reasons of tone, transition, and avoiding boredom. Just depends on the situation.

If you don't end up finding 4 or 5 ways to make each chord, then you're just not lazy enough.

[LastMohican]

I presume you're talking about putting the pinky down first, when you're moving from the 4 finger G to the 4 finger D?

Yeah. I'm a chord guy (chords always come easier for me than melody), but I found that G to D transition one of the most difficult to develop.
Thinking of the strings 2,3,4 in terms of its being a 3 finger chord played without using your pinky helps. Make that form and then put the pinkie down on the first string. After a while, you can then just move the pinky along with the other changes.

But it takes a while for the fingers to remember all that.

Funny, but after doing all that and making the 4 finger chords pretty automatic, I'm finding that I prefer to use them less now, for reasons of tone, transition, and avoiding boredom. Just depends on the situation.

If you don't end up finding 4 or 5 ways to make each chord, then you're just not lazy enough.

That's a good description of how I've been working on this deal! The one thing I can GURANTEE...I'm going to wind up with a much stronger pinky! And that's a good thing!

[Kevin Winn]

... the method of changing closed chords where you keep the pinky planted but you just relocate the two interior fingers (say moving from a closed G to t a closed D)...

This is what I'm curious about. Is there a description of this out there somewhere?

[HonketyHank]

You might want to watch Pete Martin's "Pinkie" videos, numbers 5a, 5b, and 5c here ==> http://www.petimarpress.com/mandolin...%20videos.html

[bigskygirl]

Another thing you can do is grab a 3 finger G 0523 and practice switching to the 3 finger D 0452 - for this purpose don’t worry about the G string right now or if it bothers you just mute the G string with your thumb...sit and practice that then add the pinky.

[Phil Goodson]

In post #13 above, I meant "index finger" in most of the places I wrote "pinky". Sorry. Old brain!

[bigskygirl]

.....If you don't end up finding 4 or 5 ways to make each chord, then you're just not lazy enough.

Ha! Love this!

[AlanN]

This is what I'm curious about. Is there a description of this out there somewhere?

G: 7-5-2-3
D: 7-4-5-2

Keep the pinky on 7, just relocate the other 3 fingers. Once you get it, it's like hitch-hiking or the peace sign, it's that simple.

[Buck]

Anyhow, I'd never heard of closed chords, but it sounds like they're chords that don't include any open strings. On guitar, that's most of them. And yup, chopping muted strings helps me overcome a myriad of sins.

Clearly you haven't seen me play guitar.

Seriously though, I think many (most?) guitar players utilize open strings in most chords. At least that's true in Bluegrass and the singer/songwriter type music I'm most often playing.

[Bren]

I guess I'm lucky there. When this is what you want, closed chords start to fall behind...

Thanks. Seeing RG play this song in Melbourne in 1975 was one of the things that crystallised my desire to play mandolin.
By them his mandolin technique had evolved a bit since your 1972 clip (can be seen on "irish tour 74" you tube) but still with the same direct passion that we loved Rory for.

He continued to play that Martin, although he owned other mandolins.

There is a clip of him jamming onstage at Montreux with Bela Fleck, where he goes into a loose improvised bluesy version of Blue Moon of Kentucky and sings something like, "Bill Monroe opened a hole in my soul"

I guess he's not the guy for closed chop chords though.