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Thread: Instrument mics

  1. #1
    Registered User Jritter3's Avatar
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    Default Instrument mics

    Hi all,

    This is all new territory for me, so forgive my potentially apparent naivety. Ive been playing music weekly with a small group of friends for the past 2.5 years. Recently we decided that we should invest in some sound equipment so we can start doing some small shows at local bars, etc.

    Our first big leap was to all chip in and buy an AT4033 mic. So far, it has worked fine and we've gotten pretty good at dancing around each other on stage to make everything work. So, my question is: I see a lot of bands that sing/play around one mic stand. All of them have something similar to the AT4033 on top that they sing into, and some of them have smaller mics on the same stand, at instrument level for their instruments. Can anyone reccomend a good quality mic for that purpose? Id like to get two or three of them so I can put them at different angles to pick up our instruments, but I dont even know where to start looking.

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    You have opened Pandora's box my friend! Good luck and enjoy the ride.
    Please note my "too many mics" monicker!
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  4. #3
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    I used the one mic set up for years, my recommendation is stick with one mic height about 1/2 way between the singer and the instrument and work it about 12 or 18 inches back for the lead instrument or singer other instruments as close possible and of course lead singer moving back to accommodate harmony singers. If you've worhed the dance out you are almost there. Doyle Lawson used one mic only when Dale Perry was with him and IMHO Quicksilver never sounded better. Much better than now with those da## pick ups or mics directly on the instruments.

  5. #4
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    The bottom line on this is that it is incredibly dependent upon the room. in larger, open, non-reflective stages it can work well. Up against a hard wall behind you in a small, noisy venue and you could be in big trouble. It always pays to have a 'plan B' ready if you do use the single-mic approach. Another issue is that pro-bands will have an engineer on the desk constantly checking levels and working to reduce the risk of feedback. Without that, you might struggle in some venues. Monitoring can be a real problem with the single-mic method: generally, use IEM's (in-ear monitors). Be aware that these cost from around $1,000 per musician as a minimum. Certainly adding in a good feedback suppressor is sensible insurance too, though even the best have limits and in some venues, close-miking the instruments is likely to be the best option.
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  6. #5

    Default Re: Instrument mics

    For what it's worth I'd say that with a quiet, listening audience the single microphone approach sounds great. However, "small shows at local bars", says to me pickups/preamps/individual microphones.

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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Jritter3 pay no attention to those behind that curtain. Listen to all suggestions then do what you and your band thinks work best for you. The band I played in for years disbanded last year because everyone but me was getting older and chose to quit. We had moved from multiple-mic to a true one mic set up several years ago. To further complicate matters we used a ribbon mic. I don't know of the times that I asked a sound man to set up my mic and being told that a ribbon figure 8 would not work in a PA. The reality was in all the years and all the situations that we used it there was 2 times that I couldn't make it work. My point is do what works for you, try everything discard what you don't like but don't listen to the nay sayers. PM me if you go with the one mic or even the one vocal one instrument mic and want some advice. I will share my experience with you if it helps.

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  9. #7

    Default Re: Instrument mics

    I use a Sennheiser e614 to mic my mandolin while my voice gets another Sennheiser vocal mic up higher on the mic stand. NFI. The e614 works very well at capturing the mandolin, and has a rapid response.

    For an in-ear monitor, I have ordered a Behringer P2. I will run a cable from my PA's ext out into the belt-clipped P2, and then earphones up to my ears. At $39.99, the P2 is worth the experiment to see if I can avoid the $1,000s that others suggest is necessary for a wireless system for the entire band. Of course, my two band mates won't have monitors, but then they aren't singing or playing solos either, just playing bass and rhythm.
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  10. #8
    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Jritter3 pay no attention to those behind that curtain. Listen to all suggestions then do what you and your band thinks work best for you. The band I played in for years disbanded last year because everyone but me was getting older and chose to quit. We had moved from multiple-mic to a true one mic set up several years ago. To further complicate matters we used a ribbon mic. I don't know of the times that I asked a sound man to set up my mic and being told that a ribbon figure 8 would not work in a PA. The reality was in all the years and all the situations that we used it there was 2 times that I couldn't make it work. My point is do what works for you, try everything discard what you don't like but don't listen to the nay sayers. PM me if you go with the one mic or even the one vocal one instrument mic and want some advice. I will share my experience with you if it helps.
    I didn't really reply to the question with my ominous welcome to the club. My mic collection has shown me that lots of combinations work for live sound. 1, 2, 3, 6, 8 mics on stage. Each has its challenges and benefits. You will become a better engineer of stage and sound, and will have moments of joy and embarrassment. A device I wish I had when I started, but is new to the market, is a versatile, compact, powerful digital mixing system, with spectral analysis, lots of eq options, compression, limiters, etc.
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  11. #9
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    FWIW , my friends have a 5 piece group, on one stand they have 2 cardioid pattern Mics
    could be AT4033 (AKG?),

    they use them side by side so patterns overlap and so act like a wider area hearing microphone..

    So, vocals and instruments can be heard fine..
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

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  13. #10
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Jritter3 I don't know of the times that I asked a sound man to set up my mic and being told that a ribbon figure 8 would not work in a PA.
    They can work in a PA. However, like most things they have pros and cons. The side to side rejection is usually excellent on ribbons. However, they are just as susceptible to rear-wall, head on reflections as a cardioid mic, pus, if you have a noisy audience or a lot of room reflections coming back from the rear, they'll pick all that up too. It's what they do. Inherent in their design.
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    They can work in a PA. However, like most things they have pros and cons. The side to side rejection is usually excellent on ribbons. However, they are just as susceptible to rear-wall, head on reflections as a cardioid mic, pus, if you have a noisy audience or a lot of room reflections coming back from the rear, they'll pick all that up too. It's what they do. Inherent in their design.
    Agreed. we seldom played to a " need some back ground music that we ain't even listening to" audiences so that was never a problem. The reason I brought that up is to state that the " common knowledge " sometime is wrong, don't be afraid to try what you think will work and see, then don't be afraid to demand it if that is what you need to sound like you want to sound.

  15. #12

    Default Re: Instrument mics

    I think the issue of "then don't be afraid to demand it if that is what you need to sound like you want to sound.", is that presumably acoustic bands amplify in order to reach their audiences so you have to compromise. They are coming to see you if you are lucky, so the sound has to be as right for them as for you. In the end they deserve to be entertained, so use whatever equipment it takes to do that, whether it's one microphone, individual microphones or even solid instruments if it gets the job done.

  16. #13
    Registered User Mike Rodbell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Hi all,

    I have a custom mandolin for which the LR Baggs pickup was way too noisy (lots of pick noise). Took it to a luthier, who suggested cardiod mics. From a brief internet scan, it looks like the Audio Technica AT-35 is a favorite. Anyone on this board use one? Any accessories required? I have a custom a-style mandolin with small F holes, pick guard and limited places to clip things. would a separate mount be useful? I've seen some, however am not quite sure how they may work. Photo of my mandolin is in my profile picture for reference.

    Thanks!

  17. #14
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Yeah ….. get your wallets and / or purses out. And find a gear head friend that loves music and does not play. Owning too many mics is difficult. Each venue will have it's genuine challenges to deal with. You can have several different mic set ups including transducers in your instruments. Feedback suppression is a good investment. What you can do is set aside an equal share of money from each gig to reinvest in your equipment. Gear is often developing problems. < Sigh..... Anyway … You can work from each end toward the middle. You have a good single mic to use . You can next purchase to separately mic with some Shure SM57's or 58's strands and cords to start from the cardioid dynamic end of the collection. They are tough industry standards. Or you can go the corded route with some attachable instrument mics...….. Luck... R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

  18. #15
    Registered User Mike Rodbell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    I'd tried mics. They're fine in quieter venues. An absolute non-starter in noisy bars. I found myself trying to play louder to compensate. Definitely not happy with that results. Pickups on one mandolin seemed OK, but its not my favorite mandolin. The nicer one didn't do well with the pickup. So, I use the less fancy mandolin with the pickups for the bars....

  19. #16
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Here's an ATM-350 (similar to the AT 35):

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    Same mic on my Gibson:

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    If you don't have a finger-guard, you can adapt the DPA clips to take the AT's:

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    These are excellent mics - as are the DPA 4099's:

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  20. #17
    Registered User Mike Rodbell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Very nice. From the looks of the mics using the clamps, I also have a nice Martin Guitar that I would prefer to not use pickups with. Sounds like a similar clamp could be used to switch between the mandolin & guitar (can only play one at a time!). Sound wise, from what I gather the AT 35 response is quite good (along with a more reasonable price), so I may go that way.

    Thanks very much for the photos. Those are extremely helpful!

  21. #18
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Rodbell View Post
    Very nice. From the looks of the mics using the clamps, I also have a nice Martin Guitar that I would prefer to not use pickups with. Sounds like a similar clamp could be used to switch between the mandolin & guitar (can only play one at a time!).
    If you're talking about adapting the DPA clamp for the AT 35, it won't be ideal to use the same clamp and mic for both guitar and mandolin. It's sold in different versions for each instrument, with the guitar clamp having a much longer shaft. You could use it on mandolin, but you'll have that shaft sticking out behind the instrument.

    I use the DPA guitar clamp with the 4099 mic on my octave mandolin because the body is thicker and the mandolin version won't work. Here's what it looks like, and notice the way the shaft is sticking out below the clamp, at the bottom of the photo. It's longer than it looks in this photo.

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    It's a bit inconvenient and I've been meaning to cut it off. It would be a lot more inconvenient on a mandolin with the thinner body, so I use a separate DPA 4099 mic and the shorter violin/mandolin clamp there. You could still try it, but also note that it's a bit fussy to remove and attach these clamps and adjust the mic height between different instruments. It's not something I'd want to do in the middle of a stage performance. Ideally, you'll want a separate mic for each instrument, with the clamps adjusted properly, so you can just pick up each one when you need it.

    BTW, the DPA 4099 (and I assume the AT 35) does work very well on acoustic guitar. I think the best mounting position is the bass side upper bout near the neck join, pointing the capsule between the edge of the guitar and the sound hole. We used it that way in a duo for my partner's Martin acoustic guitar. It looks a little weird sticking up over the top of the guitar like that, but it sounds good and we never had any complaints about it.

  22. #19
    Registered User Mike Rodbell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Thanks. I'll start with the clip on for the mandolin. I'm playing this weekend & will give it a go. The need for a guitar mount is longer term. Pretty good bet I'll find something by then. Thanks again!

  23. #20
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Haven’t read the whole thread, so apologize if I missed something...

    For the Martin, especially in bars, you could consider a sound hole pickup with a preamp as in impermanent mode of amplification. I use an LR Baggs pup and a Venue DI preamp in our praise band (usually with drums, bass, 2-3 vocalists, and at least one other guitar, often electric) to good effect. Does my Taylor 714 sound as good with this configuration as it would through a vibey vintage mic? Of course not, but I’ve had no feedback issues and can EQ til my little heart’s content. And, after the service I take out the pickup in about 30 seconds. I can’t recall the brand of pickup Lyle Lovett uses, but I’ve read that he takes a similar approach, because he doesn’t want to permanently alter his babies...
    Chuck

  24. #21
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    As Foldedpath says, the DPA clips are very good, but switching mid-gig would be rather 'fiddly' to say the least. On mando, I personally prefer the regular (supplied) AT clamp fixed to the finger-rest as shown. This is quick to attach and really solid. I added a bit of protective soft leather to the back of clamp part to protect the mandolin, just in case it ever got accidentally 'yanked' - though I thread the cable over the strap too. Just in case.

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    I have ATM350, AT Pro 35's and DPA's... so have compared them extensively. I would rate them all very highly. They are accurate, subjectively sound great (especially compared to transducers) and you can get very good levels indeed once you get used to them and 'dial them in'.

    Oddly, though the ATM350 and AT PRO 35 capsules are different, they sound very, very similar in practice. The 350 has (on paper) a bit more of an extended HF response, but on mandolin and guitar it is hard - in practice - to hear much difference. In short, the AT PRO 35 is tremendous value when you look at the price of the ATM350 and the DPA:

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    The clamp is identical, incidentally.

    Speaking of clamps... here's how I adapt DPA clamps to take ATM's...

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    I just use a nylon wire-tie....

    Works great and is reversible.

    They do indeed work great on acoustic guitar too. Another one that does is the AT PRO 70.... a lot of 'Gypsy Jazz' players love these. There is a soundhole clamp... I am always wary of these, but if you fix the cable well and are careful it is OK. They sound very good too, though personally, I prefer a stand mount mic for that.
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  25. #22
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Nobody has mentioned the price of the guitar clamp by itself. Not sure about the US but DPA list them at 33€ + local taxes (+ shipping etc). Retail in the UK is around £49.

    Personally, in a loud band situation, I'd go for a Fishman Rare Earth soundhole pickup.

  26. #23
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Anybody tried the Rare Earth Mic Blend? I need a solution for guitar, I use AT 35 for mandolin and have used it on guitar, it's great on guitar, but I need to get another for use with guitar - just thinking though that a blend of mic + magnetic coil might be better for the guitar.
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  27. #24
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    One issue with the Rare Earth is that it does limit you as to string choice, as you need strings that work well with magnetic pickups, and many popular mandolin and acoustic guitar strings don't. Personally, I just don't like how they sound, either, but that's just my preference. Blending with a mic takes the worst of it it off, but then you lose a lot of the one significant advantage of magnetic pickups, gain before feedback. Once you blend a mic in, most of that 'headroom' disappears.
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  29. #25
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Instrument mics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Anybody tried the Rare Earth Mic Blend? I need a solution for guitar, I use AT 35 for mandolin and have used it on guitar, it's great on guitar, but I need to get another for use with guitar - just thinking though that a blend of mic + magnetic coil might be better for the guitar.
    I bought one of those years ago, tried it for a while, but didn't like it. As Almeriastrings pointed out, if you blend enough of the mic signal in to sound "acoustic" instead of that signature mag pickup tone, you're back in feedback fighting territory. I also didn't like the weight of that system clamped to the sound hole. I could hear a subtle difference when playing acoustically or recording into an external mic, compared to nothing clamped to the sound hole. And it's not the kind of thing you'd want to constantly swap in and out of the sound hole.

    I finally discovered the DPA 4099 guitar clamp and mic, and that's been my personal choice for amplifying an acoustic guitar. Easy to attach and remove, sounds like a guitar. I like the 4099 system so much that I have several for use on various instruments like mandolin, octave mandolin, acoustic guitar, and fiddle, depending on what band situation I'm in, and who needs to be mic'd up.

    I do have the advantage of being selective in the kinds of gigs I do -- no loud bars, and playing "Celtic" music that doesn't involve loud stage levels, where a mic works fine. If I was playing a different kind of music on a loud stage, I'd probably go straight to solid or semi-solid body electric mandolin. I really dislike the in-between solution of contact pickups. Give me a clamp-on or external mic for a pure acoustic sound, or else full electric, and I'm happy.

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