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Thread: headstock repair

  1. #1
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    Default headstock repair

    Looking for some advise. Should I pin this? If so, two or just one?

    I was also wondering if there's a rigid veneer material that would strengthen the repair. I've since decided that if I don't just clean clean up the face I'll just cover it with a wood veneer. Out of curiosity, is there such a rigid material?

    Thanks in advance!Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    In my opinion, the best repair for that would be to simply glue and clamp. Alignment and fit are critical for that to be the case, so however much time as it takes to set up a reliable, secure alignment and clamping procedure, it must be done.
    My reasoning:
    Looks like a pretty good gluing surface in the third picture, and I assume the opposing surface is as good and can be made to fit well. That is a recipe for a good glue joint. In order for dowels, pins, splines, whatever to be inserted, some of that glue surface must be removed, so unless the dowels, pins, splines or whatever fit well enough, and supply enough side grain to side grain glue surface to more than make up for the lost glue surface that results from their insertion, the joint will not be as strong as a simple glue joint.
    My preferred glue would be hot hide glue because it has high tensile strength and is not subject to plastic deformation (creep).
    If the joint can be made to fit well and if it is glued and clamped securely, there is not much to be gained from adding a veneer because the repair should be plenty strong anyway.
    Some may argue that a back strap veneer would add strength, and if one is particularly well made, fit and glued, it might, but once again, if the joint is well aligned glued and clamped it should be strong enough. A veneer on the face would add no particular strength now matter what material.

    My only concern is this:Click image for larger version. 

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    If that is a cross-grain fracture, strength may be lost there, and it might make me consider epoxy for the repair... but maybe not...

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  4. #3
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Thanks John. Who doesn't love hearing what they want to hear?

    It fits together very tightly (not as in pic 2) and holds in place.

    My thought regarding pinning was to first glue it up, then run carbon rod down the neck through the headstock face.

    I can't make out the nature of the crack that you point out as being of concern. There's no give/flexibility in it. That's probably what got me thinking about running a pin(s).

  5. #4
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    +1 on what John's already said, plus there are only 4 relatively low tension strings to worry about, not like it's a 12 string or something...

  6. #5

    Default Re: headstock repair

    Perfect candidate for simply gluing and clamping, plenty of long grain happening there

    Steve

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    Default Re: headstock repair

    I've been known to pin a few, but I don't think I would do that again, at least not on this one.

    A simple glue and clamp will probably be sufficient. If you're good with hide glue, it would be a good choice. If not, use Titebond original.

    I might glue the long section first, let it cure a good 2 or 3 days, and then gently flex it and try to wick some hide glue into the possible cross-grain fracture that John referred to.

    The peghead veneer doesn't look very attractive. If you want to, you can replace it after everything has cured. It certainly won't hurt anything.

    If it still seems weak after everything is done, you can add a backstrap, but you would have to be pretty crafty about your fit and proportions. I wouldn't go to the trouble unless I was dissatisfied with the preceding work, or unless I wanted to partially hide the break.

    The worst I ever tackled was a D-28S slothead that had shattered pretty badly-- there were 3 groups of cracks. I glued everything as tightly as I could, and it held for 3 or 4 years until the fellow dropped it again. The second time, it was worse, and I did use a couple of pins. It held for another 10 or 12 years until he dropped it again-- again. He was too embarrassed to bring it back to me after that. I heard he brought it to fellow who is trying to learn how to build-- maybe he re-necked it, or spliced on a new head. Whatever happened, it's no longer my problem.

    I will say that if I had that particular one to do over, I would probably mill the back of the head down and add a fairly stout veneer. Then I might paint it orange to remind the owner to quit propping the guitar up against tables and chairs and such.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Thanks everyone!

    I don't want this to be my first experience with hide glue. I'll save that for a build (if I ever feel I have the time and commitment).

    I was beginning to think that Titebond is not sold in British Columbia, but found that Lee Valley sells Titebond III and No-Drip Glue. Should I avoid these? Is an Elmer's or LePage's product just as good?

  9. #8
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    We know that Titebond Original works and that people have had problems with Titebond II. I don't know about the III and I have not before heard of No-Drip or LePage. Perhaps someone from Canada can help you with that. Have you tried your local hardware suppliers? If not, Titebond Original is available from a variety of US sources.

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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Aha! I always forget about Windsor Plywood. For some reason I think of them for plywood....

    Website says they carry TB Original.

  12. #10

    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    The worst I ever tackled was a D-28S slothead that had shattered pretty badly-- there were 3 groups of cracks. I glued everything as tightly as I could, and it held for 3 or 4 years until the fellow dropped it again. .
    One of the more challenging ones I recently had to do.

    Steve


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    Default Re: headstock repair

    I did one 5-7 years ago, a Martin that was run over by a bobcat at a festival. It was the festival's fault and they brought it to me for a reneck. Seems the guitar was given to the owner by his mother who had since passed. Given that information I pieced the headstock back together, adding an approx 1/2" by 1 1/2" piece of wood that was missing. No pins, just hide glue and patience. Still working fine according to the festival crew. Agree with all hide glue, a little practice on some scrap will get you up to speed.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  14. #12
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    One of the more challenging ones I recently had to do.

    Steve

    Now that's purty.

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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Titebond 3, Titebond No-Drip, Elmer’s Carpenter’s Glue, and LePage Wood Adhesive are all polyvinyl acetate formulas. They might be fine for building a bookshelf or putting up molding but they should be avoided for instrument work. The key is to buy something with an aliphatic resin emulsion base. You should be holding out for Original (red label) Titebond if you are not using hot hide glue. Any brand with a similar formula would work but it really needs to be aliphatic resin.

    Perhaps fish glue could be considered? Shares many characteristics with hot hide glue but liquid at room temperature, does not need to be heated.
    Don

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  16. #14
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Fish glue has a poor reputation for long-term durability. This reputation may or may not be earned-- it is possible that some of the problems may be due to users not allowing adequate setting time, but . . .

    We know that hide glue and Titebond Original work.

    In this particular application, I would advise at least 48 hours setting time for Titebond, 72 hours for hide glue. This may be more than is necessary, but it is better to err on the side of caution. I generally allow extra setting time for guitar bridges also. I don't like re-work.

  17. #15
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    One of the more challenging ones I recently had to do.

    Steve

    I'm wondering how they managed to just run over the peg head without hitting the rest of the guitar . . . ?

    Or do people keep pet elephants in Australia??

  18. #16

    Default Re: headstock repair

    I give up asking these days, some of the things you see just blow you away.

    That photo was me assembling it back together on my bench to see what parts were missing

    Steve

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    Default Re: headstock repair

    I went to Windsor Plywood on lunch today and got Titebond Original.

    Thank you all for the advise.

    The hunt for TB had the benefit of causing me to discover what a great store Windsor is. I should have gone there when all the other hardware stores let me down when I was looking for clamps. (I should have left that typo as "looking for clams.".

  20. #18
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Oh no! I have a mild but hyper sensitive peeve caused by a former coworker who would write "Please advise" (not advise, please).

    How could I have let that slip by in my OP?

    Thanks again for all the ADVICE!

  21. #19

    Default Re: headstock repair

    Hey, it's ok. We knew what you meant. Better to communicate with incorrect grammar than have perfect grammar and not communicate.

    One of the things I like best about songwriting is abusing the language. Artistic license and all that.
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  22. #20
    Registered User Steve VandeWater's Avatar
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    One of the more challenging ones I recently had to do.

    Steve

    If you've completed this repair, do you have any "after" pics? I'd love to see them!
    It ain't gotta be perfect, as long as it's perfect enough!

  23. #21
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    One of the things I like best about songwriting is abusing the language. Artistic license and all that.
    Yeah but I wasn't trying to artistic.

  24. #22

    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VandeWater View Post
    If you've completed this repair, do you have any "after" pics? I'd love to see them!
    I don’t have many after repair photos, including this one, the photos are typically taken to log the inwards job, the outwards job is assessed by the client so does not need a photo, hence lack of after photos

    http://www.mirwa.com.au/Headstock_Repairs.html

    Steve

  25. #23

    Default Re: headstock repair

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    I don’t have many after repair photos
    This one went back last week, It came through a music store so I never met the customer, hence I have before and after photos on the database
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  26. #24
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    Default Re: headstock repair

    mirwa- very nice! Tell us, how did you deal with the finish, since Taylor uses UV cured catalyze who knows what?

    Ouch! I just noticed this one uses that finger joint they used to use for the headstock. I’m sure that complicated things. That joint is already half glue anyway, not a thing like a clean break through solid wood.
    Don

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  27. #25

    Default Re: headstock repair

    I used UV clear

    Here’s a link showing process with uv paints

    http://www.mirwa.com.au/Headstock_Repairs.html

    Steve

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