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Thread: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

  1. #1

    Default A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    I'm sorry to have to start off here by asking for help, but I have recently started buying old musical items at auctions, I don't usually pay so much but I was after a violin and saw this banjo mandolin and I tried it and thought it had real quality and it has real weight in the pan.

    I took it to a guy at the music shop who thought the neck was not original, but he was looking at the neck over the pan and I figure after looking at a few online that's sort of standard and the neck carries on into the pan.
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    Judging by the serial number and badge if this is all correct I reckon it to be 1909, but I still would like to know...
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    a)Does anyone know if it is correct?
    b)What is the model of the instrument and is it 1909?
    c) Most important Did I get a good deal at £230/$300

    Anyway thank you kindly for your help. And I hope you won't be too annoyed if I asked again for your help if I find anymore old odd items as I am in deep gratitude of people who know what they're about, the problem is I'm used to guitars.

  2. #2

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Sorry I was talking about the guy at the music shop being upset by the neck join like this...

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    Since then I looked at the old forums on Fairbanks banjo's and saw that the necks are all like that and also I kind of figured for myself today that the neck is one solid piece thrust through the pan.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Actually, the dowel stick, or "perch pole" as it is called in the UK, is a separate piece of wood that is glued into a hole in the neck heel. They are sometimes removed from old necks and installed into new necks, most often when a 4 string banjo is converted to a 5 string by installing a new replica neck.

    Your mandolin banjo does appear to be an original Fairbanks/Vega product. I am not familiar with all of the mandolin banjo models, but my first guess is that it is a "Little Wonder" model.

    There have been several lists of Fairbanks/Vega serial numbers over the years, and they differ slightly. But yes, the serial number is from circa 1909, give or take a year or two.

    $300 American would be a reasonable price for an instrument in that condition. There is a fancier "Whyte Laydie" mandolin banjo listed at $675 at a vintage store in the US that stocks a lot of old banjos. Their price may be a little on the high side.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    I don’t know what the correct term in the UK but what you call the pan we call the pot.

    Though this is a nicer one mandolin-banjos are not so desired over here except for novelty music.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    That neck joint looks correct to me. I've never seen a Little Wonder with a spun pot and I've passed a few through. Maybe they did it in a earlier version than what I had.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    It looks pretty much all correct but, I agree with Mike, spun over rims were not a not “Little Wonder” trait that I have ever seen.
    When you consider that the head needs to be adjusted for humidity and temperature (well, hide heads more) there had to be a “notch” at the heel to allow freedom of movement. My guess is that the seller does not speak”banjo” fluently. Sadly, I speak more Banjo than is good for a mandolin player, sometimes.
    Price does not seem at all bad, have some fun with it!
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Don't think it's a Little Wonder. Every one I've seen (I own a Little Wonder mandolin-banjo now) has been marked "Little Wonder" on the dowel stick, and I haven't seen one with the spun-over rim. According to this source, the metal "A C Fairbanks Co." tag was introduced 1895, and used at least through 1900. The headstock shape seems rather plain for the Little Wonder, as well. If the head were removed, we could determine if it has a tone ring; Little Wonders did.

    It seems in good shape, generally, and it's definitely from around the turn of the 20th century, so I'd say the price, while not a stone bargain, is decent.

    Also: when posting pics of an instrument, it's helpful, IMHO, to take a full picture of the instrument "face on." Pictures of details are helpful, but it's good to start with an overall shot of the subject of discussion. We get pics of tuners and labels and tailpieces, etc. etc.; sometimes it's hard to get an overall impression of the instrument from partial images.
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  13. #8
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    I don't know how early in the 1900's it would be, when did the whole switch from mandolin to banjo take place?
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I don't know how early in the 1900's it would be, when did the whole switch from mandolin to banjo take place?
    It's rarer to find pre-1920 mandolin-banjos. Most of the makers appear to have added mandolin-banjos somewhere around that time (Washburn in 1917, e.g., according to Pleijsier's book; Gibson catalogs one in 1919; this thread claims S S Stewart introduced them as early as 1904).

    I was going by the "A C Fairbanks Co." metal tag, which the Fairbanks site states was used through about 1910, at which time Vega was making Fairbanks instruments, but apparently not labeling them "Fairbanks Vega." My Little Wonder is stamped, not tagged, "Fairbanks Banjo Made By The Vega Company," and mine is 1920's. So I'm speculating this one is earlier.
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  17. #10

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Thanks very much for all your responses, it's good to know it seems to be all authentic. I did a little internet research myself and came up with the impression it looked like a little wonder, though I'm not sure as the rim on the pot (not pan sorry Jim, it's not a term we use in the UK it's just I tend to call anything a pan if they are too shallow to broil hotdogs in) doesn't look like a little wonder, so that was one of the reasons I was asking here if anyone knew what model it was.

    Also rcc56 thanks for the information on the dowel as I was thinking that the neck and dowel seemed to be of different wood, the rim and dowel are a straight grain, while the neck has a far more flowing grain. And thanks for the information on the neck joint from all of you, I kind of figured that the gap was there for adjustment after I looked at other examples on the internet, but you have put my mind at ease.

    So basically I sort of get the idea that this is quite an early mandolin banjo and from the serial number and name plate, dated about 1909 just before Vega took over who replace the name plate with direct markings on the wood. Also from the pot I take it it's not a little wonder, but looks like one that Fairbanks used on a few banjo models beforehand.

    Here's a fuller picture of the instrument for allenhopkins or Allen if you prefer...

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    Please excuse the background I was at work ,with a banjo mandolin, i.e. not working.

    Anyway thanks very much for all your feedback it's good to know the instrument looks genuine and I haven't made a mistake buying it, as it seems a pretty solid bit of kit and in good shape, now I'll just have to learn how to play it well, while I try to place it. I am actually working for a guy who has connections in Boston so I'll ask him if he knows of any music shops in the area since the instrument was made there. It would be interesting to find out it's history and how it's ended up in the UK. If I learn anymore I'll keep you all informed and thanks again for the help.

    Happy picking.

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  19. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    If the head were removed, we could determine if it has a tone ring; Little Wonders did.
    I wonder why you would have to remove the head to see the tone ring. Just look in the back and you should be able to see whether it has one or not.
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  21. #12

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Could you describe what I need to look for Jim please, if it is a round piece of metal on the inside of the pot between the wooden inner rim and the drumskin, then yes it has one.

  22. #13
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    The tone ring is pretty much a open ended metal hoop in a groove on the Little Wonder if I recall. I guess you might be able to catch a glimpse of it from inside. It's not like the Gibson tone rings.

    Here is a thread with pictures of a Little Wonder mandolin banjo.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPaul View Post
    Could you describe what I need to look for Jim please, if it is a round piece of metal on the inside of the pot between the wooden inner rim and the drumskin, then yes it has one.
    Here's the inside of my 1890's Fairbanks Senator pot showing the tonering.

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    Jim

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  26. #15

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Here's the inside of my 1890's Fairbanks Senator pot showing the tonering.

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    Yes it has one of those, though is kind of corroded you can see it in the serial number picture.

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  28. #16

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Thanks for that thread Mike. I don't buy musical instruments for money, I buy because I like them and I love to learn a history about them, so basically I'd buy an old guys washboard for a tenner.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    I have a buddy who is “well versed” in A.C.Fairbanks. I’ll see if I can get him to take a look and get his opinion, if he’s not at a festival somewherewith no internet connection available.
    I still don’t think is a “Little Wonder” but, I could be wrong.
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  31. #18
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Just looked at an online copy of the 1912 banjo catalog [the earliest I could find on-line], and it doesn't list the mandolin-banjos. The spun rim models that they do list are all 5 strings: Special No. 2, Senator, Regent, and Style C "Banjorine" [sic]. It might be that any mandolin-banjos from this early period were not standard catalog items, and did not necessarily have standard model names. Around 1913 we start to see a Style K banjo-mandolin with a simple brass rod tone ring and plain appointments, but I don't recall seeing a Style K with a spun rim.

    Yours is certainly a very early model and may well have been a special order, sales sample, or prototype.

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  33. #19

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    FWIW, no bluegrass guy would confuse a simple tone hoop with a tone ring -- just saying. A small brass tone hoop is slightly better than nothing at all, but tone rings have "religions" built around them. I'm no expert, but BG banjo guys take this stuff very seriously.

  34. #20
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    But Jeff, no bluegrass guy would think very seriously about one of these in the first place. Strictly speaking it is a “tone ring”.
    No, not a Gibson style ring but, a “ring to augment or improve” tone, nonetheless.
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  35. #21
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Let's try to help the owner about the history and provenance of his new instrument rather than arguing about whether or not brass hoops, tubes, and rods qualify for the name tone ring or not.

    Let's also realize that the subject of banjos is much wider than just the Mastertone style instruments currently favored for bluegrass music; just as the subject of mandolins is much wider than carved top instruments with a Florentine scroll.

    BTW, Tubaphone and Electric [now usually called Whyte Laydie] metal tone systems are also considered tone rings but would not generally be favored for bluegrass. Also by the way, I think Earl Scruggs made his first records with The Blue Grass Boys on his RB-11, with a brass hoop tone ring.

    My apologies to the original poster for my brief rant on semantics. That instrument could be a lot of fun to play. And yes, it appears to be an original Fairbanks instrument made by the Vega company, which acquired Fairbanks for $925 plus $1 for 4 patents [at least one of them for tone rings] after a factory fire in 1904; 14 years before Gibson ever made a banjo.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jun-22-2018 at 11:18pm.

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  37. #22
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    This is a little wonder tonering: https://rickardbanjos.com/product/li...ring-assembly/

    Whyte Laydies and tubaphones also have the spun brass sleeve that goes over the bras rod and the outer skirt fits into a rabbet cut into the rim.

    As far as the neck joint, it looks like there's nailheads sticking out to shim the joint. Usually you don't shim neck joints on dowel stick banjos, it's not very effective, and the current wisdom is that you want a gap between fingerboard and tension hoop so that the hoop can freely tension the head: https://www.banjohangout.org/archive/338066

    Siminoff's banjo setup book advocates the fingerboard fitted tight to tension hoop tho. But not with nail heads.
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  38. #23
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Quote Originally Posted by gtani7 View Post
    This is a little wonder tonering: https://rickardbanjos.com/product/li...ring-assembly/...
    The "tone ring" part is that open ended hoop. Not real complex.

    Siminoff's banjo setup book advocates the fingerboard fitted tight to tension hoop tho. But not with nail heads.
    It should be noted that Roger wasn't around when the OP's banjo was built.
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  40. #24
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    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Yes banjolins are neat and well obnoxious! But I sure do like the looks of the rare Cremona 1924 Gibson MB-5's! Just another one of those obscure Loar type instruments like the Cremona Trapdoor TB-5's with the ultra kool fern type peg head inlay or those Tenor Lutes. All pretty neat stuff.

  41. #25

    Default Re: A C Fairbanks Banjo Mandolin 1909?

    Thank you all so much for your comments, as far as I can see the pot seems to be a "electric" with the full chrome outer and nuts showing through the inner layer of wood and the neck a "little wonder," style with the same neck and machine heads and tuners, but as the dowel and the pot show the same serial no. it's still hard to place it especially with the Fairbanks plate.

    No diss to gtani7 but I can't see a nail in the instrument at all, in the pictures of the neck joint there is a slight impression in the wood where you could think it may be pinned but it's not it's just an indent in the wood

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    As you can see...

    Anyway thank you all very much for your time and consideration, again if I hear anything about the instrument I will keep you informed and if I find anymore strange stringed things I hope you will oblige me.

    Thank you and all the best for now.
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