double stop question

[RickPick]

I found Pete Martin's video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBE1NvRReis very helpful in figuring out where to find the "other" stop to go with the melody note. (I realize a trained ear will do the same, but mine's still "in training". And I also understand there are various other options than only going up to the next higher note in the chord). But as I've messed about with Pete's explanation, I've come across situations where the melody note is not one of the three notes that make up the chord, so Pete's "go up to the next higher note in the chord" explanation doesn't work. So are those places a bluegrass player would simply steer clear of double stops? For example, in "Jimmy Brown the Newsboy" played in G, a C melody note in the first line and under a G chord would just be a bad place to try to play a double stop. Right? Since the G chord does not have a C in it? Am I straight on this, or missing something? Thanks.

[mandroid]

AKA Intervals ,, 2 out of 3 or so, notes in a chord .. 7th being a 4th note; 1357..

Harmonizing the melody notes is another way to think of it, a duet of voices..

never inducted to the Bluegrass team , I don't know the restrictions they imposed.



bass player doing 1, 5, 1, 5.. you don't have to play those notes

you can make the rest of the chord..

Sub forum on music theory, etc. here; https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/f...ips-and-Tricks

[doublestoptremolo]

I tend to play double stops on sustained notes, and those are usually a note in the underlying chord. That C note is brief, but you could harmonize it with the D, E, or G above it and it won't sound off.

[Mandoplumb]

This is an example of one of the things Ralph Stanley meant when he said it's the hardest music in the world to play. You can use a double stop on any note you want if it sounds like it belongs in a BG song. If you know everything there is to know about music theory ( everyone that does raise your hands) you might be able to figure out what note to use as the harmony, the rest of us mortals just have our ears and experimenting to determine it. My brother majored in music and knows theory, he'll listen to some of Ralph Stanley's tenor and say I know what he's doing but he don't and how does he know to do it. As was stated in last thread double stops is harmonizing with melody note just as in singing.

[ukenukem]

The choice can also relate to where the note is in relation to the progress of chords. Is the melody note creating tension that will be resolved or resolving tension created earlier. The other note choice can reinforce or cancel that "flow."

DISCLAIMER - I know nothing about bluegrass but do have a BA in Music Theory. And I am avoiding working on double stops on mando (at least for now) because it takes so much effort!

[doublestoptremolo]

In "Jimmy Brown," if you're playing in what I guess is called first position (near the nut) in G, and you wanted to harmonize the B note (on the words "name is"), you'd play the G note above, and playing the C and the high G together will sound fine.

I don't think double stops are necessarily that hard but I think the pedagogy on the subject isn't great. You have people recommending violin books, when the challenges of playing double stops on the violin are so much more difficult than mandolin.

And you have a lot of key-centric thinking when, in my opinion, it's better to think in terms of intervals. The main intervals you use in bluegrass harmony are minor 3rds, major 3rds, and 4ths, and to a lesser degree 6ths. Each of these intervals has a shape. The shapes of the double stops repeat in patterns (see Pickloser's guide). More important, learning the non-contiguous double stop shapes (1/3, 3/5, 5/1) and the double stop shapes that apply to the I, IV, and V chords, enables you to harmonize with minimal effort.

So if you tell me to play "Jimmy Brown" in E-flat, I put my index on E-flat (either on the 3rd or 1st string), and I'm visualizing the 4 or so double stops that correspond to the I chord, the 4 that apply to the IV, and the 3-4 that apply to the V chord in a two or three-string area. I'm not thinking about the names of the notes or the chords, only shapes and the chord (I, IV, V, vii, etc.). I find the sustained melody notes in the shapes. So playing in E-flat is only marginally more difficult than playing in D.

[bigskygirl]

I found Pete Martin's video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBE1NvRReis very helpful in figuring out where to find the "other" stop to go with the melody note. (I realize a trained ear will do the same, but mine's still "in training". And I also understand there are various other options than only going up to the next higher note in the chord). But as I've messed about with Pete's explanation, I've come across situations where the melody note is not one of the three notes that make up the chord, so Pete's "go up to the next higher note in the chord" explanation doesn't work. So are those places a bluegrass player would simply steer clear of double stops? For example, in "Jimmy Brown the Newsboy" played in G, a C melody note in the first line and under a G chord would just be a bad place to try to play a double stop. Right? Since the G chord does not have a C in it? Am I straight on this, or missing something? Thanks.

Check out Sharon Gilchrist on PegHead Nation, I attended a camp she was teaching at and she has a very nice system of learning and using double stops. DS eluded me for awhile and although Pete Martin and pickloser have very good materials I just wasn’t getting it. I got Sharon’s in the very few moments it took her to teach them, it’s only $20/month for PH Nation and you can get a free first month...well worth it.

Since we all learn differently check out Matt Flinner, Banjo Ben, Mandolessons, Pickin’ Lessons, if you don’t get one then try another. Once you know a “system” for them you don’t even have to know the key...it’s like doublestoptremolo said it’s just a matter of knowing where they reside.

To answer the original que, you’ll most likely have to throw in a note or two to stay with the melody, you can just use all DS but it’s something you’ll just have to figure out yourself while playing and what sounds good to you.

[OldSausage]

I've come across situations where the melody note is not one of the three notes that make up the chord, so Pete's "go up to the next higher note in the chord" explanation doesn't work. So are those places a bluegrass player would simply steer clear of double stops? For example, in "Jimmy Brown the Newsboy" played in G, a C melody note in the first line and under a G chord would just be a bad place to try to play a double stop. Right? Since the G chord does not have a C in it? Am I straight on this, or missing something? Thanks.

These are passing notes, called such because they are not in the chord, but are sounded against the chord as the melody passes through them. You can do the same thing with your double stops, you can hold the C note against any other note from the G chord, (while that part of the melody is over a G chord in the harmony), and it will still sound right in that situation.

[RickPick]

In "Jimmy Brown," if you're playing in what I guess is called first position (near the nut) in G, and you wanted to harmonize the B note (on the words "name is"), you'd play the G note above, and playing the C and the high G together will sound fine.

I don't think double stops are necessarily that hard but I think the pedagogy on the subject isn't great. You have people recommending violin books, when the challenges of playing double stops on the violin are so much more difficult than mandolin.

And you have a lot of key-centric thinking when, in my opinion, it's better to think in terms of intervals. The main intervals you use in bluegrass harmony are minor 3rds, major 3rds, and 4ths, and to a lesser degree 6ths. Each of these intervals has a shape. The shapes of the double stops repeat in patterns (see Pickloser's guide). More important, learning the non-contiguous double stop shapes (1/3, 3/5, 5/1) and the double stop shapes that apply to the I, IV, and V chords, enables you to harmonize with minimal effort.

So if you tell me to play "Jimmy Brown" in E-flat, I put my index on E-flat (either on the 3rd or 1st string), and I'm visualizing the 4 or so double stops that correspond to the I chord, the 4 that apply to the IV, and the 3-4 that apply to the V chord in a two or three-string area. I'm not thinking about the names of the notes or the chords, only shapes and the chord (I, IV, V, vii, etc.). I find the sustained melody notes in the shapes. So playing in E-flat is only marginally more difficult than playing in D.

Thanks for this, doublestoptremolo. Sounds like advice from the horse's mouth; my next question will be about tremolo! Obviously I have much to learn about intervals. Thanks for nudging me in that direction.

[RickPick]

Check out Sharon Gilchrist on PegHead Nation, I attended a camp she was teaching at and she has a very nice system of learning and using double stops. DS eluded me for awhile and although Pete Martin and pickloser have very good materials I just wasn’t getting it. I got Sharon’s in the very few moments it took her to teach them, it’s only $20/month for PH Nation and you can get a free first month...well worth it.

Since we all learn differently check out Matt Flinner, Banjo Ben, Mandolessons, Pickin’ Lessons, if you don’t get one then try another. Once you know a “system” for them you don’t even have to know the key...it’s like doublestoptremolo said it’s just a matter of knowing where they reside.

To answer the original que, you’ll most likely have to throw in a note or two to stay with the melody, you can just use all DS but it’s something you’ll just have to figure out yourself while playing and what sounds good to you.

Thanks for the recommendations. I've used a Flinner book that had lots of breaks employing DS, but no explanation as to why THOSE paired notes. The breaks sound good (if elusive to my bumbling fingers), but I had little sense of how he decided to go to THOSE notes.

[bigskygirl]

Yes, the key...FOR ME...was learning the system, the way SG teaches them in a system (she calls it series and neighborhoods) makes it easily transposable...you just have to know how they work - like chord systems heck if you wanted to play a tune in G#m I have no idea what the chords are (unless I really think about it) but I could do the DS now.

So once I learned the basics I could use them on demand...now (2 years later) I'm discovering that some are made up of a minor/major 3rd, perfect 4th..etc but that is really not required in the basic stages (or ever) when all I wanted to know was where they were so I could use them in tunes.

To use them in tunes I first learn the basic single note melody then add a DS and see how it sounds (it's going to sound good as long as its a chord tone but some will sound better than others, you get to decide)...do this a few times with really basic tunes that you know well and you'll discover how those "passing" notes OS mentioned fit in as well. Banjo Ben actually does this in some of his "build a break" lessons.

[RickPick]

These are passing notes, called such because they are not in the chord, but are sounded against the chord as the melody passes through them. You can do the same thing with your double stops, you can hold the C note against any other note from the G chord, (while that part of the melody is over a G chord in the harmony), and it will still sound right in that situation.

When you answer this question so clearly and sensibly, I wonder how I could ever have asked such a foolish question! OF COURSE, any of the other melody notes played under a G chord would be harmonic with G, B, or D. It is irrelevant what the double stop is for that passing note! Slow brain, but it does seem to be working.... Thanks for your clarity.

[sbhikes]

I found that it was best to not do any double-stops at all until it seemed I understood them enough to hear them in my head. Then it was simply a matter of trying them whenever I could and rejecting a bad double-stop when it didn't work and keeping it when it did work. Trying to calculate it out in a rules-based understanding just doesn't work for me.

[David Lewis]

I think I'm missing something, because I have arranged a few songs in a 'double-stop' style - My harmonies may be primitive, but there are a few standard patterns you can do - such as the major third (or the sixth): so, G and B (1st string third fret, and second sting, second fret). Moving this pattern around (and adding a minor (moving the B down one fret) works all over the fret board. I suspect the issue is the 'guitar' double stop doesn't work as often as it does on guitar - so, G and C - on a guitar, having two adjacent strings mostly gives you a fourth (let's pretend the B string isn't there). On mando it gives a fifth, so there's that more 'space' between the notes.

Maybe I should do a lesson on it?