Band Issues

[Humminghawk]

Hello Cafe,
I am in a bluegrass band, just a local deal but we were lucky enough to find a 5 piece, plus harmonica/vocals in our small town of 2,000. Our guitarist is pretty good (20+ years) but the rest of our band is fairly new to their instruments. Some of us are willing to put in the work on our own, and others are not. And it shows. I am getting frustrated with our progression as a band, or lack there of. Unfortunately, I do not know any other musicians who like to play BG. What do I do? I love to play with other people, but I just don't like the sound we are producing. It honestly sounds best when it is just 2 or 3 instruments. Do we trim the fat?

[Br1ck]

What instruments are the problems? Have you talked to the guitarist about your concerns? How good friends are all of you?

I've been lucky to play with some great musicians, but willing to woodshed so as not be left behind.

What are the five pieces? If you aren't enjoying it, changes should be made.

At some point you need to be upfront and honest. You might end up odd man out. The better musicians might actually be having a good time.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If you don't discuss it with the other band members,you might need to do what i did many years back when i had the misfortune to hook up with 2 guys who just didn't want to practice - walk away !. One night at the Manchester University Folk Club,me on banjo & the 2 others on fiddle & guitar respectively were on stage playing. The fiddle player called a tune to play & i kicked off on banjo. It took 3 tries for the guitar player to get into it,& half way through,the fiddle player stopped & asked if we could start over again !. THE HELL YOU SAY !!!!!!! - I'm GONE !.

It's unfortunate that some folk have high goals in their playing & want to be the very best that they can be - others simply don't care. In a jam session,that's fine,but if your musical goals are high,& especially as you're being paid to entertain others,don't settle for mediocrity - it shows (as you yourself say),the word gets around & all of a sudden - no gigs !.

I'd discuss it with the other guys out of courtesy to them,to see what they want to do to progress as a band,but,i'd lay my personal view on the line for them. I wouldn't want to play in a band with folk who's goals werent't the same as my own with regard to having a good sounding band. There needn't be any accrimony in the discussion,simply a freely aired set of views to ''separate the wheat from the chaff'' so to speak,& discover how far the other band members are willing to go to produce a good band,
Purely my point of view - having been there !!!,
Ivan

[Mando Mort]

Trying to have a good-performing, gigging band is not going to work when you have folks who are new to their instruments. I think the "Walk Away" concept is good for this situation. Perhaps over time, the newbies will improve and then it might work.

I have tried to find other like-minded, good musicians in my area with whom I can play, but it isn't as easy as just wanting that to happen. I just keep my eyes open for folks who are interested and able and make the most of making music in the meantime.

[OldSausage]

Talk to the ones you want to with, and see if they are open to starting a new band.

[Roger Moss]

It has to come out. If it doesn't now, when it can be confronted in a positive manner, then it will later, when things won't be so friendly. At that time the hard feelings might be your own, and the situation might have gone so far you may be the one out. These things always just get worse if not nipped in the bud. Besides, if it was me holding everybody else back I'd want to know.

[Beanzy]

Some of us are willing to put in the work on our own, and others are not. And it shows.

It takes a good while of playing with others to get tight. By contrast with learning the instruments or getting the tunes in your head, that’s normally learned by playing with others. Of course we need to practice the instruments & vocal accuracy etc alone, but it probably needs more well planned time playing together, rather than just more wood-shedding. It might be worth splitting rehearsals into sections to let band members develop their ears, by working just with the instruments they’re supposed to be locking into. Maybe bass/mandolin/guitar time aside to get that tight. Then acapella vocal practice at stacking the harmonies, leaving out the distraction of instrumental playing until they’re solid.

It honestly sounds best when it is just 2 or 3 instruments.

definitely sounding like there’s too much being juggled while people are still trying to figure out where they’re supposed to fit in. One of the reasons good players can often get together and sound like they’ve been playing together forever, is because they know the formulae that make that style work properly so they can just pull it out of their box of things they know well. So much of this is dependant on getting the penny to drop, which happens at different speeds for different people. I reckon more practice time spent applying the ‘rule book’ to your given band of players & voicescould pay big dividends. If you abandon those who still haven’t got it you’just end up starting over. So I would say better use of time learning how to turn players into a unit would be worthwhile. At least that way the rest of the band are looking and listening & learning what’s missing & what needs work. That way when push does come to shove everyone will understand why.

[Astro]

Wow, a 5 piece amateur band is a really hard thing to stick together with the schedules of a modern life. I have also dealt with this issue a couple of times. Usually the serious ones will stick with it over time and the not so serious ones will fade out over time. The problem solves itself.

If its all just for fun, I'd try to concentrate on getting better myself and using the band as the motivation for that. Don't worry so much about the level of others (hard to do at times but try). Once you get better, then the better musicians in the area will be attracted to you and you will step it up a notch in the next band.(nothing lasts forever-its a work in progress journey).

If its for fun but also for hired gigs, that is a different story. Does everyone have the same goal? If the idea is to gig for hire then its natural to ask for a little more work ethic. One way to do that is you be the guy to get the gig. Here is the material we must get down before that date. Those that get it down in time show up for the gig. Those that dont, keep practicing and maybe you will get it the next time. No hard feelings and we're all pulling for you...

Maybe the best way is to talk to the ones you want to play with and form a more serious band as David said, but then also keep everyone on in the casual band as a second band for fun.

Finally remember to be gentle. Music making is a sensitive and deeply personal thing. Talents vary widely but we all bare ourselves nekked in a way and its very easy to unintentionally hurt someone deeply. I've been on both sides of this one. Unintentionally "hurted" and been unintentionally hurt. Even when you know its not personal, it hurts.

[tmsweeney]

A band is " a group of individuals playing music together" or a "practiced unit producing music"- well its both.

Play to your strengths, what do you enjoy doing that audience's respond to ?

Keep it simple ( as simple as possible) but make sure it is not boring ( for both player and listeners) .

Look at each other while performing - use facial signals or other movements as notifiactions- choose a leader ( it doesn't have to be the same leader each song) - but let that leader lead ( unless its a train wreck, then let someone else who is better at leading - lead.)

record the band and listen back together with open minds

I have found playing private gigs for small parties or weddings allows the band to relax and experiment more than paid public shows like a bar or a festival. Having guests play with your band teaches the band how to adjust .

Practice small difficult parts as a band ( like endings or pauses) ( this takes a lot of patience and commitment).

I think that last word sums it up, if the members of the band are not committed to the same objective, then the music can and probably will suffer.

Being in blue grass band or any band for that matter can involve a lot of commitment - with no immediate return on investment, so its important each member believes that about the band.

Bands do come and go so I wouldn't get to bogged down in the roster.

[David Lewis]

The worst thing about managing people is managing people. The question to ask is 'is it worth it?' Can you grit your teeth and be prepared and be good, with the others? If not... there are options. Some regrettable, some unthinkable, some easier than you think.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Willie Poole]

Any good band needs a leader...Then he can ask for suggestions and what songs are we going to learn etc...I was in two bands at one time as a side man and one band leader said I wasn`t serious enough and the other band leader said I was too serious, now how can that be, I was the same person at both places...When I did start my band I talked to the pickers that were trying out for it and let them know what I expected and the ones that I finally chose all liked the same kind of songs and we always got along real well, you can always expect some of them to want to branch out to bigger and better things as they get better on their instruments knowing this I try real hard to keep all of my band members happy by listening to their suggestions and trying songs that they want to learn, of course I have the final say so...

One thing for sure...IT AIN`T AN EASY TASK...

good luck....Willie

[Mark Wilson]

I agree to keep it friendly, but go with just the players willing to put in the work. Otherwise prepare to lose the better players down the road

[Charlie Bernstein]

The answer, as usual, is: it depends.

If playing is a social activity, then learn to love the chaos. If you have professional aspirations, you'll need to deal with the weak links somehow.

I play with six different groups. We don't take ourselves overly seriously in any of them, but we do get gigs sometimes and try to rise to the occasion.

In the largest of them, a six-piece, two people are always way behind the eight-ball. The rest of us agreed a long time ago that we'd keep them - but we also made clear that some gigs would just be four-piece.

The result has been that we haven't advanced as far as we'd once hoped, but music is made, and no friendships have been damaged.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Eoin - " It takes a good while of playing with others to get tight. ". I'd normally agree -but !. Back in late 1965,i got together with a guitar playing friend of mine,Mike Bowker,to practice,with the idea of forming a band. We both had the same Bluegrass recordings & knew the tunes backwards. We went through about 20 or so songs / tunes with hardly any problems. Mike said that his mandolin (& banjo) playing cousin,Tom Bowker,would be willing to join us,so the next week all 3 of us go together at Manchester's old MSG Folk club to paractice. It was a doddle !!. We ALL had the same records & knew how to play them as they sounded. After practicing for an hour or so,we went upstairs to where the Singer's Club night was on,booked a spot,got up to play 4 tunes,& came away with our first 2 bookings !.

The ease with which were able to play so well together after an hour,was simply down to our limited supply of Bluegrass LP's.
When you only have a half dozen or so,you get to know 'em pretty well ! 9 months or so later,we opned for Bill Monroe & the Boys when they played the MSG,
Ivan

[mandocrucian]

Playing only or primarily the mandolin will almost always put you at the mercy of your musical (incompetent and/or competent) cohorts!

You need more leverage -

• become a competent lead singer so you can insist on doing some of the material you want.
• at least become an OK rhythm guitar player; it is so much easier to back yourself up with a guitar than a mando. Or at least take up a lower register mando family instrument (mandola, OM, cittern) to get below the voca.l
• learn the rare art of expanded mandolin accompaniment in which you can actually dump the guitarist (if need be) and still keep the groove together - examples: Ry Cooder, Martin Carthy, Andy Irvine, Dave Swarbrick, Duke Levine, Ian Anderson, moi. (Warning this takes a whole different set of chops and mindset than just playing fiddle tunes.)
• Double on another lead instrument - fiddle, guitar, flute, accordion etc. Gives you a lot more options looking for a different 'band' if you can fill another slot. "Just mando" is not one of the more in-demand jobs.
• Double on another instrument while you are playing mandolin or mandola - standalone organ-style Midi bass pedals can provide self-backup. And if the beat gets too plodding on the 1 & 3, just adding a hi-hat (or tapping your foot with a metal dance shoe-tap on the floor or wooden board) on the 2 & 4 will make more difference than you would ever believe!

If you can function as a solo, it's a lot easier to add another player or two to what you are doing. You may decide to replace the bass pedals with a real bassist (but you don't have to!) It will also make it easier to offer an alternative lineup to the better (and/or easier to work with) players in a "would-be band".

The worst thing about managing people is managing people. The question to ask is 'is it worth it?' Can you grit your teeth and be prepared and be good, with the others? If not... there are options. Some regrettable, some unthinkable, some easier than you think.

Ain't that the truth! Running a band can be a gigantic headache, especially if you just want to play and don't want to be a music biz hustler.

Niles H

[Steve Ostrander]

There are many levels of “being in a band.” Jamming, having a band for fun, playing open mics, playing gigs, playing gigs for $$, working band, professional musicians. Everybody has to want the same thing or it will never work out. Everybody has to want to get better or it will never work out. Everybody has to know the material or it will never work out. A lot of people think it’s all fun and games but the truth is that there’s work involved. When people realize how much work, they will sometimes decide that it’s not worth it, or they don’t have the time, or the most recent family crisis has to be dealt with, or . . . I predict that either you are going to drop out, or they are going to drop out. You can wait for them to drop out if you are patient. But the fact that you are posting about it tells me that you are not that patient.

[Radish]

I'd say discuss your goals as a band. What do you all expect from this? What do you want to achieve? If everybody agrees to the same line, then you can ask them to toe that line as well. If the goals are different, then you need to be ready to say 'That's it', and see if you can set up something new with the people who are willing to put the work in. But without saying anything, nobody knows what's going on.

[Timbofood]

Band conversation about “goals, direction,etc.,” are all well and good but, you all have to WANT to be a band together.
My band has had the same core for forty+years we are friends. Early on there was a fiddle player who wanted to be part of the band really badly but, she wanted me too, there was the problem, she was a great classically trained violinist and had spent a lot of time listening to records to understand the music. She wanted to be in the bad but, her chemistry with the band would have been a “Yoko” moment and probably destroy the group. Thankfully, another friend who was playing in a duo started to explain how hard it is to keep that together and how impressed he was at how the original members get along and adding another person to the mix would be difficult at best.
We dodged the “Yoko” moment. But then, another guy (who knew Yoko) wanted to be part and would show up at gigs to sit in for a couple of tunes it was fine but, when he started to tell people “Sure, we can play such and such” I slammed on the brakes.
My point is the most important thing that a group of musicians can do if they want to make up a band is to like each other and have the understanding that there WILL be bumps.
From the musical standpoint, if you start and end the tunes together, that will help you feel confident with every new tune you add.
Just one man’s experience, who knows how your band will do but, make sure to remember that it’s called “playing” music.

[gspiess]

If you want to play serious music, you have to have a serious approach. I spent too many years practicing in garages and basements while the other guys talked a good game, but basically used it as an excuse to smoke weed on a Saturday afternoon.

You need to talk about goals, music genres, commitment levels, time availability, family time. I've been in bands where we knew each other by reputation only - we were serious musicians; but the fun starts when you see the crowd reaction to the great music you're playing.

One final word of caution - if you have family obligations, they should come first. I've known of guys who got divorced over bands and that's just sad. One of the toughest times I ever had was leaving a successful band that we had "built" after I got married and had kids. The band got too successful and I could no longer commit to being away every weekend while I had a family to think of. I look back on it now and think it should have been a no-brainer, but it's tough to step away from something you pour your heart and soul into for a couple a years.

[jab]

boy, been there done that for 30+ years. Nothing worse than preparing and practicing your parts and guys show up with "what key is this in again". I'd go for "the talk", tell them that if you're going to take the time away from family (or whatever) to do this you want to sound really good, not mediocre. You don't need to practice to be mediocre. Therefore, you'd expect everyone to sound really good given their abilities, and put in the time. Otherwise, you might be better thinning the herd, working on your craft with one or two others that sound good and along the way some better musicians might pop up. Very frustrating I know. Band is only as strong as your weakest link.

[farmerjones]

I think the best way to be in a first band is if everybody else in the band has already been in at least one other group. One learns so much with every trial and failure, having several newbies to cope with, would be hard on the glue that keeps the whole thing together. Of course, the glue is desire. You have to want to be there. Everybody has to want to be there. Like cats, you're not going to persuade the old ones to stick around if there's not something there.

I do like the situations where everybody involved could be a soloist, but they so love playing together, they're overly respectful. Overly courteous. Y'know, musicianship aside, it's always better when everybody involved is overly respectful and courteous. I can forgive a lot of crap, if somebody has the desire and is courteous. OTOH, I don't care if you play like Sam Bush if you fit like a size 12 foot in a size 8 shoe.

[stevedenver]

Timely thread for me.

Tis time for " airing of grievances".

I am in a not -much "bluegrass band", poor guitarist, superb bassist, keyboard accordian "ethyl merman" type, a bona fide rock star as fiddle and banjo and amazing vocals, projection phrasing dynamics, (his banjo is NOT 3 finger, hence "not much BG" and moi, mando, guitar, banjo, and bass if need, some harmonica. Im pigeon holed as mando, due to ....others turf issues.

I dont like piano, nor accordion/melodian, in BG, and the latter only in tiny amounts. It has great potential for color, but with ethyl at the controls.



Musically, My joy is grassing up pop rock covers, longer breaks, some attention getting arranging. And singing, and musical conversations with other instrumentalists.

Ehtyl recently decreed , too many non bg covers,(she being culpable) we're not playing enough bluegrass, and its a "problem" for her marketing us as product.



The core 2 must use charts, have every pause, break, outro, etc written.
I have all of our tunes memorized as do bassist and banjoist.

I love playing with rock star and bassist, but, am getting soured with the rigidity and to me, musical dullness of the core folks.

We have worked hard almost 2 years. Our vocals and harmonies are our strength.
Overall, though, i hate the 1-3 beat, white bread low energy sound we have, the number of low energy songs we have (its a compromise of each members choice, or, was).

I am struggling with quitting.


Yet, i know, simply finding folks who show up dependably are hard to find.

Better the devil you know?, or the simple joys of playing alone or with others that have verve and playfulness.

[farmerjones]

Accordion Steve? Must pay really good.

When a tank of gas costs 70USD, I don't suffer much for free.
In fact I do play a lot for free, but it's who you play with, ain't it?

[allenhopkins]

...When a tank of gas costs 70USD...

I'd get a smaller car. Or a hybrid.

On the main subject: "band issues" is one reason I do 75% solo gigs. I'm in several groups and partnerships, though, and have developed a couple principles over 45+ years of "playing out":

1. I try to work with the most professional, dependable musicians I can -- the kind who almost invariably show up prepared, punctual, and aware of their roles and responsibilities. I've worked with other kinds, but it's usually "one and done." Music is fun, self-expressive, light-hearted and personal -- but when you're playing music in a professional context, you're also working. You need to approach the situation as you would approach your "day job," at least in large part, and your fellow band-mates need to try to adopt the same perspective.

2. But, that having been said, I also try to accept band situations as they are, as much as I can, rather than straining to make people be what they aren't. Other band members may have responsibilities -- job, family, whatever -- that limit what time and attention they can spend on the group. I once got a lecture from another band member about just how much time he had to spare from his self-employed craftsperson job, supporting his family, to rehearse and perform with a part-time band. I listened and learned. Others may have health issues, physical limitations, or even strongly held preferences/attitudes about what they will/won't do. Either we figure out a way to work together, or we reluctantly part company and seek another arrangement.

I've been kicked out of a couple bands, and each time I thought it was maybe the worst thing in the world. But, after a few weeks or months, other opportunities opened up, and I could always pick up solo gigs as well. Don't invest too much, psychically or financially, in a band or other musical arrangement about which you have doubts. Other musicians are out there, other places will hire you, things will change -- some for the better, some not. If you're spending a whole lot of time frustrated by a current musical situation, your music will reflect that frustration, and you won't get what you need out of it -- musically, professionally or emotionally.

[Chuck Leyda]

Are you having fun?

If you are, accept the shortcomings and have more fun.

If you are not, make the necessary moves to have more fun.