People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

[Gelsenbury]

There are cross-cultural differences about this, but I think it can be more impolite to bear a grudge and say nothing than to point out an issue honestly and tactfully.

If two people want to play music together, they are essentially a band or a project, with a shared identity and a shared goal. So it's not the player with allegedly bad rhythm who has a problem. It's the band that has a problem because its members play different rhythms.

When something like that happens in our band practice and I notice it, I say something like "Wait, we don't sound in time here. I think X is faster than Y." Note the pronoun "we". The whole band needs to work together to fix the issue. Sure, some members will be closer to getting it right than others. But everyone can improve, and nothing kills team spirit more reliably than someone blaming everyone else and refusing to work for the common good.

There's also the challenge of finding a repertoire that suits the band rather than assuming that it can play anything. Does this guy play poor rhythm on everything? Is there anything he plays well? Would it work to change the style or let him dictate the rhythm even if it's idiosyncratic? We have several songs that sound good when just one of us plays them, but we don't play them together because we haven't found an arrangement that suits all of us. Sometimes things just need to be put to one side.

If, of course, the worst player is also the one who insists that everyone else is at fault, it may be better to acknowledge the difference in opinion and stop playing together.

[Br1ck]

Willie Nelson made a career out of never landing on the beat, either singing or playing.

Willie Nelson is so good. He really is a jazz guitarist, and his incredible sense of phrasing is extraordinary. Yes, there can only be one in a band. To imply that he has a lack of timing is ludicrous. To the contrary, his sense of timing is so good it enables him to push the envelope of the possible.

[Tom Haywood]

I think some kind of metronome work is essential for anyone who wants to play with others. A trick I use is to create back up rhythm files in Tabledit for the songs I practice. Whether the metronome click is on or off, the rhythm is always precise. Then of course you have to adjust to the other peoples' rhythm when you get together and play. Suggesting a group metronome practice, in my experience, is the perfect way to break up a group. You find out who's in it just for fun and not for improvement.

[Timbofood]

Fifth of favorite liquor, good hard driving bass player WITH a metronome!
It will become obvious, just keep singing the same chorus until they see it.
Otherwise, find someone else to play with.
I did a recording session with a guy who felt he was the next <insert whoever> and he’s been a solo act for years. He can’t keep time with a Rolex! He got “tweaky” about it then, I pointed out that when you work with others, you have to find common ground. After the second rehearsal, he started to see what I meant.
I have since sworn off recording with him.
Friendship is a different story, some work, some don’t. One has little to do with the other in my experience. I’ve got buddies I can’t pick with, some I can walk in after ten years and feel like we played together yesterday!

[DHopkins]

Individual's perception of their own abilities varies across the board, from doctors to mechanics to musicians. In some cases, perhaps it has to do with knowledge. Several years ago our band wanted to add a female to do some lead singing but also add harmony. Pre-audition, we would talk with them about what they like to sing, etc., but one of the questions was always "Can you sing harmony?" Invariably, they said they could. Well, it turned out they could sing the lead an octave higher which, while it has it merits sometimes, is not harmony. Eventually, we abandoned the idea.

[Mark Gunter]

I ran into something like this over the weekend. I was at the Folk & Bluegrass Festival in Pagosa Springs, Colorado and had a great time. I got to meet some cafe members face-to-face, and got to play with some good musicians in several situations.

BUT most of the folk in the immediate camping vicinity were people who loved to play and sing, and cared not a whit for technical prowess, including good timing. Unlike what is described in this thread title, most of these folk freely admitted that their timing was not great. By the end of festival, most of them saw me as a "serious musician" and seemed to think highly of my music, but I found it very difficult and frustrating to play together with them - as I have all my life with folk who play with little regard to how many beats have gone into a measure.

I have to say though, that these folk -- who were real Dead heads -- made some great communal music to listen to because of the pure joy they had in singing and playing the tunes they love.

BTW, though I was never a big follower of the Dead, I learned long ago that when you can do a Doc Watson version of Little Sadie or Deep River Blues you automatically are welcomed into the fold.

[George R. Lane]

Solution: repertoire from Trout Mask Replica

I just googled Trout Mask Replica and I will have nightmares from it.

[Kevin Stueve]

Willie Nelson is so good. He really is a jazz guitarist, and his incredible sense of phrasing is extraordinary. Yes, there can only be one in a band. To imply that he has a lack of timing is ludicrous. To the contrary, his sense of timing is so good it enables him to push the envelope of the possible.

You clearly missed my tongue planted firmly in my check, (for future reference, the presence of a winking emojicon is a pretty good clue). I suggest bourbon, as you are wound way too tight. Yes Willie's impeccable sense of timing is what allows him to play around the beat instead of
on the beat and anyone with even a modicum of musical knowledge has to appreciate his genius.

[Roger Moss]

I just googled Trout Mask Replica and I will have nightmares from it.

Not a Beefheart fan?

[grassrootphilosopher]

...It worked.

It also makes you a happier musician.

Had I followed my parents (my mother´s mostly) wishes, I would have learned classical violin/piano/whatever playing countless etudes, breaking my back learning to read music and probably being disgusted at what I would do. I resisted.

Later I learned guitar by ear. Imagine the glee when you wake up having dreamed about playing the Doc Watson solo to "Little Sadie" you take up the guitar and you can actually play it (it happened again with the Grisman mandolin solo on "Swing 42", only an octave lower).

Since then I made my peace with classical teachers. But I cherish people that are earnest about their music. I like it that someone plays music as if they wrote it.



I also think that in this thread timing and rhythm are mixed up. I think that one has to distinguish between rhythm and timing.

A person with good timing and bad rhythm can be helped. A person with bad timing is much more difficult to teach.

A person that ignores their bad timing/rhythm cannot be helped.

[Mark Gunter]

I also think that in this thread timing and rhythm are mixed up. I think that one has to distinguish between rhythm and timing.

I admit I haven't read every single response here, but I'd like to hear more about the distinction you're making. Over the years, I've encountered many people who have bad timing. Not only in speeding up and slowing down a great deal, but in skipping beats in a tune. An example would be a vocal tune, where the last syllable of a lyric may fall on beat one or two of a measure, maybe followed by another full measure. The culprit skips beats and goes right into the next chord to start again with their lyrics -- leaving other musicians in the lurch. That sort of thing. Sometimes I try to keep up with an offender, but it drives me nuts. For the most part, I just stop providing backup for folk when that kind of thing is out of control.

[Bertram Henze]

...The culprit skips beats and goes right into the next chord to start again with their lyrics -- leaving other musicians in the lurch. That sort of thing. Sometimes I try to keep up with an offender, but it drives me nuts. For the most part, I just stop providing backup for folk when that kind of thing is out of control.

I know what you're talking about. We have one such singer, who accompanies himself on a 12-string, and most other accompanists soon give up. I have tried to start a song once with a steady structure and asked him to sing along to that, and he said he couldn't. He's stuck in his own time zone and proud of it, it appears.
And I am not talking about sean nos singing here, which is exempt from fitting a beat, although some manage to do huge accompaniment shapes for even that.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Did you hear the one about the bass player who had difficulty keeping time? He got so discouraged he decided to end it all by throwing himself behind a train.

I have not read through all of the above, but I might suggest they hire a vocal coach to help them "arrange the music to suit their voices". Then of course what will really happen is that the vocal coach spots the problem and works to help them correct it.

Daniel

[AlanN]

There are so many vagaries of bad timing, poor rhythm and overall shiz when jamming with others. One thing that annoys me greatly is the singer not waiting long enough before coming in with the next verse, not letting the requisite measures play out. To keep the music going, I'll usually follow along on this bad trip. To stop and say "Um, you need to wait..." is just not worth it. The fact they he/she is doing it that way tells me they have no clue, anyway; so, it would be like talking to a stump. Same with doing a crooked tune. I really question someone who calls one of these numbers when it's clear the talent level of the group simply cannot hack it.

There's a guy who hosts a Friday night jam around here, has been doing it for years, really cool because it gives a regular meet for the pickers to jam. Trouble is, he is a mandolin picker whose timing is something to behold. He chops at the *wrong* place, incessantly, and simply does not hear it. It is truly grating to hear. I gently tried to steer him right once, did not go well. The others seem to either not be bothered by it, don't even hear it themselves (likely the case) or just go along for the ride. I don't hit that jam no more.

[mandocrucian]

The late Joe Dobbs, fiddler who owned The Fret N Fiddle in St Albans, WV, had a long running radio show on WV public radio told me that he had been talking on the bus to some of the guys in Willie's band and asked them... "How do you manage to keep everything solid with Willie and his unique timing?"

One of the band answered ...."It's easy! We just play the melody and Willie sings the fills!"

[Tom Haywood]

One thing that annoys me greatly is the singer not waiting long enough before coming in with the next verse, not letting the requisite measures play out.

I'm seeing this a lot lately, especially with older folks (over the age of 70, sorry guys) playing at jams. Some are just learning to play an instrument, but others have played at a high level for years. That worries me. A friend who plays bass professionally pointed out that most of these folks are very consistent with where they drop or add a beat, indicating that this is really the way they hear the music. One of these guys who hosts an occasional jam came to me recently for guitar lessons, because he does exactly what AlanN describes, and he tells me that this is just the way he hears the songs. Actually, he is anticipating and jumping ahead with the words and chord changes. It has become a habit, because he practices this way at home alone and because he has never read music or tablature before or tried to play with the records. I have him on a strict regimen of alternate bass strumming and bass runs, together with a slow metronome and chord tabs for his favorite songs. He says changing this habit is the hardest thing he has ever done, but after 3 months he is beginning to hear the beats correctly and not rush so much. He really wants to be able to play with others, so he is doing the work.

[Charlie Bernstein]

A solo recording should reveal it all to the player. Time is perceived very differently between playing and listening. Once the issue is obvious, a metronome is the next step. Perception can be altered.

Reread the two posts before yours. Educating the player isn't really the issue. Some of us just have bad senses of time. Being aware of it doesn't improve it. Metronomes are just confusing. (Why does it keep changing speed like that?) The main thing that I find works is playing with people with strong, steady beats.

The other thing that helps is having a sense of humor about it. If you can't muster that, it's better to just part ways.

Actually, there is one other thing that can help (a little): Have temporally challenged players stop playing when they sing, like B.B. King. I can't sing and play at the same time without speeding up. It probably has something to do with hyperventilation. Or the theory of relativity.

[Bertram Henze]

Metronomes are just confusing. (Why does it keep changing speed like that?)

I had this exact perception when I started to use a metronome, but I believed in the physical correctness of the device more than in my own perception/deception and kept on trying to adhere to the machine, with the goal of someday outprecising it and being able to let go. It worked. All it takes is stubbornness, and a lot of that.

And I agree about the sense of humor. Can't do without.

[gspiess]

This has been a fascinating thread. Having played drums for years and now mandolin, and being married to a church pianist; I'll chime in and say the greatest culprit emanates from playing by oneself. As mentioned, we all have "that arrangement" with various embellishments in our heads that we can control when playing solo. It typically results in pauses and speed-ups that we often don't even realize.
I like to think my strength as a drummer comes from being able to nail the pocket (beat) consistently. That attribute developed after once recording myself as I played along to a song in my head. The playback was horrible - I was all over the place. The lesson learned was to pull out the metronome and get to work.
My biggest observation is that solo musicians will usually base their timing and rhythm around the vocals. If they hold a note vocally, then they hold the note instrumentally and so on. The mandolin affords us two options: play fills between the vocal lines, or sing along silently and try to drop the chord in snyc with their phrasing.
Finally, and I say this about people I love, nothing is more challenging than keeping time in a church filled with white people!

[farmerjones]

The consensus among the present subset, is mandolin/acoustic/maybe Classic/Bluegrass/Folk/Old timey or Jazz, but seldom a trap set seen. If it's one thing a drum kit can do is create an impermeable beat. As always there are good drummers & bad drummers. But for reasons of this argument, go ahead and try to jump time with a kick drum at your heals. IOW, another large portion of the music world employs a drum kit. It's just how it's done. So, if your rhythm sucks get a drummer. People will think you've gone pop, and never suspect otherwise.

[AlanN]

One number which suffers from the 'not letting enough measures come and go" is Sunny Side Of The Mountain. Depending on who's singing it, the band/rhythm section needs to *listen* to the vocalist and react seamlessly to what he/she is doing. There will be lengthier parts to the vocals that are at the whim of the singer. We as acompanyists need to adjust to the ebb and flow of the thing. When there is an instrumental solo in this tune, it's mostly regular - no drawing out the chords/lines/measures.

It takes practice, experience, feel and big ears to get it all right. A guy like Jimmy Martin or Monroe would suffer no dang fools here. You either got it or you ain't got it. The answer to that yes/no will be obvious in 30 seconds during an audition.

[AlanN]

The consensus among the present subset, is mandolin/acoustic/maybe Classic/Bluegrass/Folk/Old timey or Jazz, but seldom a trap set seen. If it's one thing a drum kit can do is create an impermeable beat. As always there are good drummers & bad drummers. But for reasons of this argument, go ahead and try to jump time with a kick drum at your heals. IOW, another large portion of the music world employs a drum kit. It's just how it's done. So, if your rhythm sucks get a drummer. People will think you've gone pop, and never suspect otherwise.

And this is why cats like Oscar Peterson or Tal Farlow or Red Norvo would eschew using a drummer. Way too confining. And why a band like The Grateful Dead needed one (or 2).

[peterleyenaar]

Even though I think I have good timing, (having played a marching drum for a year in a marching band as a young boy) the metronome sets me straight, it takes a few minutes and I am on again(and in time).

I the many jams I have had at my son's place, I have observed some musicians tapping their feet totally out of time almost no timing at all, their playing reflects it, really weird to see that.

[pops1]

Tapping your foot is a good way to keep the timing correct, IF YOU FOLLOW YOUR FOOT. I see too many people tapping their foot to the the music and changing the tempo thru the tune/song. Others play ahead of the beat, which is OK for a feeling, but their foot is so loud and strong you feel it thru your chair. I have a hard time playing when I am feeling the beat and the tune is not. It's like playing with a crowd of people clapping to your music that are not clapping on the beat. It's HARD.

[foldedpath]

I also think that in this thread timing and rhythm are mixed up. I think that one has to distinguish between rhythm and timing.

A person with good timing and bad rhythm can be helped. A person with bad timing is much more difficult to teach.

A person that ignores their bad timing/rhythm cannot be helped.

I think of timing and rhythm separately too, but maybe not exactly the same way? Or maybe it is the same.

For me, timing is either the natural talent or enough training to hold a steady tempo. Not speed up, not slow down, and lock into a tempo with other musicians (which is a different skill from practicing with a metronome, and has to be learned). That's timing, for me anyway.

Rhythm is the groove, the heartbeat, the pulse of a tune that lives within the steady tempo. Rhythm skill is the bass player knowing how to play just a hair behind the beat in a Blues or R&B tune, or John Bonham's kick drum doing the same in Led Zep. Or doing the opposite and pushing just a hair ahead of the beat without speeding up, to generate excitement in other genres. It's about knowing how much swing to put into a fiddle reel, and how that's treated differently in OldTime and Irish trad. It's about nailing the "snap" in a Scottish march or strathspey.

Separating these elements as "rhythm" lets us discuss and learn them while keeping tempo as a separate element. The tempo you play a jig might vary, but the rhythm pulse within that tempo should remain the same. Within limits, because a desired rhythm feel can fall apart if the tempo is way too slow, or way too fast.

Timing has to be learned first, and trained if you don't have a natural talent for it. Then you learn the subtleties of rhythm feel. That's how I think of it anyway.