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Thread: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

  1. #76
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    GSPIESS has it right !! Quote Originally Posted by gspiess View Post
    nothing is more challenging than keeping time in a church filled with white people!

  2. #77
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    As far as dropping or adding beats, after 30 plus years as a Catholic church musician I have gotten used to extra measures at the ends of lines or missing measures at the ends of choruses. Heck sometimes the whole congregation has done it wrong for so long there is little use in trying to play it right. I am convinced there is some course given to Catholic Organist that consists of the following two "facts". One, slower is holier, and two every line deserves an extra measure. :D
    40 plus years here as a Catholic church musician. I'm still playing at Mass every weekend. I can relate to what you're saying. I've noticed older guys at jams whose timing is slipping but who were once great players. I'm 65. I think my timing is just OK but I don't trust it. Also, the adding or subtracting of beats on tunes you describe is pretty common. It's really not being off time. It's just the group or the congregation has essentially "edited" the tune over time. So they are on their beat. They're just not on the beat that was written.

    To me the essential element is listening. If you're listening and following the rest of the group, you can't go wrong. I think what some people with weak rhythm are doing is not admitting their weakness and still trying to drive the beat like they used to. It's a common truism that you're supposed to tap your foot. But if your rhythm is bad, that can just make it worse. For me, the rest of the group is my metronome. We have a really good, tasteful drummer and that is a great thing. I can stay on his beat or the beat of the piano or bass player if he's not there. I'm never behind the beat and I don't feel the need to try to drive it.

    If I feel I'm off for a moment, which is rare, I simplify to just playing down beats or completely lay out and then come back in. Since I'm playing melody, leads and fills, I don't have to be playing all the time. Sometimes I'll intentionally drag the beat a little during a passage for effect in a Willie-esqe kind of way, but only if I sense the rest of the group is right on track and I know it will sound good.

    But it's all about listening.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Sheesh …. the rhythm murderers really don't know that they are killing the music. They just can't know or they would keep time. There is nothing to be done in my experience but to be brutally frank. Give the offender a metronome and make a recording of them ruining the timing. If they then can't hear the problem … give up. R/
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  5. #79
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by John Flynn View Post
    40 plus years here as a Catholic church musician. I'm still playing at Mass every weekend. I can relate to what you're saying. I've noticed older guys at jams whose timing is slipping but who were once great players. I'm 65. I think my timing is just OK but I don't trust it. Also, the adding or subtracting of beats on tunes you describe is pretty common. It's really not being off time. It's just the group or the congregation has essentially "edited" the tune over time. So they are on their beat. They're just not on the beat that was written.

    To me the essential element is listening. If you're listening and following the rest of the group, you can't go wrong. I think what some people with weak rhythm are doing is not admitting their weakness and still trying to drive the beat like they used to. It's a common truism that you're supposed to tap your foot. But if your rhythm is bad, that can just make it worse. For me, the rest of the group is my metronome. We have a really good, tasteful drummer and that is a great thing. I can stay on his beat or the beat of the piano or bass player if he's not there. I'm never behind the beat and I don't feel the need to try to drive it.

    If I feel I'm off for a moment, which is rare, I simplify to just playing down beats or completely lay out and then come back in. Since I'm playing melody, leads and fills, I don't have to be playing all the time. Sometimes I'll intentionally drag the beat a little during a passage for effect in a Willie-esqe kind of way, but only if I sense the rest of the group is right on track and I know it will sound good.

    But it's all about listening.
    Hell, I didn't begin playing until I was almost 64 so my timing can't slip !

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    Sheesh …. the rhythm murderers really don't know that they are killing the music. They just can't know or they would keep time.
    Yes for the technically inclined. But they more than make up for their rythmic shortcomings with the pure unencumbered joy of making music.
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  7. #81
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by lenf12 View Post
    This is an issue with myself and a guy I play with after our Wed. nite BG jam. A favorite tune of ours is "The Weight" by The Band and damn if he doesn't start singing "I pulled into Nazareth..." right on the 1 downbeat while I start singing it on 1 and. Throws us off every time. I think we need to sit down with the recording and decide when the vocals begin (and end).

    Len B.
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    Reminds me of a funny tale. Way back in the early 80's my kid (at the time) brother I were at some BG fest (in FL) and ran into a good standup bass player friend named Jerry Carris (you may know him Len) who was into a lot of swing and Django stuff. Now we would intentionally mess with the timing of tunes and Erik had practiced singing "Nagasaki" while playing guitar, but singing it displaced by a 1/4 note. Instead of "Back in Nagasaki" he do it "Back in Nagasaki".

    So we run through stuff like "A Train", "Limehouse Blues" etc. and finally get around to doing "Nagasaki". Start in 'right' but somewhere along the lines, Erik would sing it rhythmically displaced . The bass player would hone in on the vocal and readjust his bassline to it and would put himself out of synch for the following chorus or break. "Let's try that again" he'd say tyring to figure out how he messed up, and we would repeat the "joke", 4 or 5 more times. He got increasingly frustrated and confused as it kept happening again and again. "Aw Jerry, maybe you should slow down on the Coors.." Eventually, he threw his hands up and said..."Man I'm tired and can't think straight. It's time to go home!"…... and he did.

    Once he was out of earshot, we transformed into a couple of knee-slapping R Crumb cartoons! (and... we never did let on to him about that! )


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  8. #82

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Practice.....in a raft or otherwise, with a metronome.


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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Once he was out of earshot, we transformed into a couple of knee-slapping R Crumb cartoons! (and... we never did let on to him about that! )


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    You are soooo mean.
    You can do the same thing to a BG accompanist by playing an Irish slip jig.
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  11. #84
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I re read the OP and it makes me wonder as I don't see where she heard them directly. It seems she is going off what her friend said. I've been on both sides of the problem. Singers who don't play an instrument who have incredible voices, can sound exactly like whoever their hero is and sing along flawlessly with the album. But in a live situation struggle with time/rhythm.

    Then there is the infamous singer/songwriter types. I tried to play with several and ended having them say they couldn't play with me because of my timing. I was fortunate that I was taught very methodically and tuning and timing were paramount. The metronome was part of my practice from the beginning so syncopation doesn't bother me. But bad timing especially the surgey speed up slow down, drop and add beats is just like an electric shock to me. I can't ignore it.

    I had moved and didn't know anybody and found a jam with this fiddle and guitar duo. They had been playing together so long they were totally in sync with each other in this weird surgey way. It took me a while but I adapted and after an hour or so I couldn't take it and left. It took I don't know how long of practice with a metronome to get rid of the toxic rhythm.

  12. #85
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    @ Mark Gunter:

    Please give me a little more disrespect!

    You choose to disagree; yet you didn´t!

    What you said was that "bands with great timing can follow a vocalist in doing the same for effect." You also said that "That has nothing to do with the amateurish inability". MAN ARE YOU RIGHT!

    Well, there´s nothing wrong, being an amateur (don´t get me into discussing amateur against pro...). Let´s say, not so acomplished musicians may not be able to understand how musical interaction works in a jam oriented situation. There´s a post by John Flynn in this thread. He´s got it covered. He is right about listening!. This is something that (even some acomplished) musicians do not do (properly).

    If you are listening to each other you can:
    - skip a beat (half a beat if you wish)
    - weird up some music (like Niles Hokkanen´s hilarious post)
    - even speed up (think Bill Monroe´s "Rawhide")
    - throw in unorthodox chord changes
    - etc.
    without the jam/music failing.

    It necessitates that one person leads the song (chord changes, timing, rhythm, speed etc.) and that everybody listens. This needs a certain level of musicianship.

    For your interest: I found that these simple songs/tunes are out of many people´s comfort zone.
    - Doing My Time
    - Evening Prayer Blues
    - T 4 Texas

    These pieces are so simple... They have two or thre (max.) chords. What´s so difficult about that?
    The difficulty comes with the inability to to LISTEN in order to know where the chord changes are etc. They jump you in the face. When you play "Doing My Time" the singer basically hollers at you to change the chord. Until then you´re good where you are. Do they listen? Mostly ... no...

    I had accomplished pro musicians fail in such situations. Reason: They are comfortable with written music. If they need to listen to others... they are lost. I find this most unfortunate. We do listen (for example: to our children) all the time. Why is this not possible in music?
    Olaf

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    If you are listening to each other you can:
    - skip a beat (half a beat if you wish)
    - weird up some music (like Niles Hokkanen´s hilarious post)
    - even speed up (think Bill Monroe´s "Rawhide")
    - throw in unorthodox chord changes
    - etc.
    without the jam/music failing.

    It necessitates that one person leads the song (chord changes, timing, rhythm, speed etc.) and that everybody listens. This needs a certain level of musicianship.
    I agree with all of this except the last sentence. It's an arrangement that suits more elementary levels of musicianship too. (OK, elementary is still a "certain" level of musicianship, but what I'm trying to say is that the threshold is quite low in my opinion.) Precisely because we know that we go out of sync sometimes, we usually agree that we'll follow the guy in the middle and play at his tempo, even if we want to go faster or slower. This should ensure that, if we do speed up or slow down, we're at least still all doing it to the same extent at the same time.

    Of course, the success rate is less than 100%. And that does have to do with the level of musicianship.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    T 4 Texas
    A lot of Jimmie Rodgers' tunes can get a bit crooked with the timing. Next time give My Rough And Rowdy Ways a shot, Jimmie Rodgers style.
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I guess a "kind" way of looking at it is to say, well, there are local bands, regional bands, national bands and international bands -- there is a reason some don't get beyond the local level!

    (not to say there aren't many wonderfully talented musiciians who choose to work on the local level....I attended an antique car show today and the local singer doing the Star Spangled Banner was better than MOST we see on tv!)

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    You don't know what you don't know. People who have poor pitch, cannot tell they are off pitch. People with very poor rhythm will not sense that they are off. The recording thing helps a lot IF the person can hear what is wrong. Look no further than YouTube to see Millions who obviously have no clue.

    If they don't get it after the recording, I would tell them in the nicest way possible, taking on some of the blame myself. Such as "we are out of time", et's practice with a metronome.
    I agree, Robert. Well said and helpful suggestions.
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    I had this exact perception when I started to use a metronome, but I believed in the physical correctness of the device more than in my own perception/deception and kept on trying to adhere to the machine, with the goal of someday outprecising it and being able to let go. It worked. All it takes is stubbornness, and a lot of that.

    And I agree about the sense of humor. Can't do without.
    Good to read! I've been using one a lot lately, and I can at least say that it hasn't hurt. You've inspired me to keep at it.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I am one of those people who have bad rhythm and don't admit it.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    ... I had accomplished pro musicians fail in such situations. Reason: They are comfortable with written music. If they need to listen to others... they are lost. I find this most unfortunate. We do listen (for example: to our children) all the time. Why is this not possible in music?
    I can't speak for other cultures, but what I've seen growing up in the U.S., is that listening is not taught in the schools.

    I'm not talking specifically about music, but for *everything*.

    Kids are (or at least used to be) taught to write, they're given some practice in public speaking (how to talk), but as far as I know there are no classes on how to listen.

    The entire focus is on output, rather than input.

    Not sure which comes first:

    (1) A short attention span and desire for instant gratification (people used to blame that on TV, now they probably blame some other tech device), which could result in the inability to listen to what someone else has to say (or play). Or...

    (2) Not giving a fig about what anyone else has to say (or play), and instead focusing only on what one is going to talk about (or play) next. Example: "If I wait long enough, everyone else will shut up (or their solos/breaks will be over), and then it will be my turn (yay!) and I can talk (or play)." Meanwhile, daydreaming about something else, instead of listening to what the other people are saying (or playing).

    When people become accustomed (or essentially trained from a young age) to always focus on their own output rather than listening and paying attention to what's going on in their surroundings, that mindset can easily carry over into music situations as well - where the person has the ability to only pay attention to their own instrument, to the exclusion of all the other instruments.

    Going to be mighty difficult to stay in time with the group, when focused solely on one's own playing.

  23. #93

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    ... one of the questions was always "Can you sing harmony?" Invariably, they said they could. Well, it turned out they could sing the lead an octave higher which, while it has it merits sometimes, is not harmony. Eventually, we abandoned the idea.
    Yup, I saw that exact same thing a while back... pure melody, not harmony at all.

    And the alleged-harmony singer also had other issues, such as firmly believing that her instrument needed to be tuned only once a week... When the group leader had everyone take a time-out to check their tuning (she was trying to be diplomatic, rather than singling out the offending instrument), the response from the non-harmony out-of-tune lady was "Oh I don't need to tune mine, I tuned it last week at home." Ummmm....

    Perhaps not surprisingly (attempt at getting back to the topic here) she couldn't keep a beat worth a darn either, on that instrument she was trying to play - both possibly (?) indicative of not listening (not hearing that it was out of tune compared to everyone else, and not hearing that she was playing a different rhythm than everyone else). Beautiful singing voice though (no problems with intonation there), she could probably do great things if she got some proper guidance as to how to apply her voice.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I love the Trout Mask Replica idea! What a great LP.

    Sounds like you jumped into something for which your friend didn't even want your help.

    So far as jams go, if someone is trying to learn and has the desire and enthusiasm, why criticize? Tolerance and some friendly advice may encourage the player to work on the issue and improve rather than make them feel unwelcome.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Mort View Post
    So far as jams go, if someone is trying to learn and has the desire and enthusiasm, why criticize? Tolerance and some friendly advice may encourage the player to work on the issue and improve rather than make them feel unwelcome.
    Good advice, and I'd assume most people here don't engage in criticizing fellow musicians. Speaking only for myself, I've done some venting in this thread - but in practice, I play with all manner of musicians, and like to encourage people. If someone who can't keep time leads a song, I usually try to follow them and if not, am happy to sit out and listen.

    What I do have a problem with when discussing stuff like this, is folk who claim that playing in time is "robotic" - and folk who think that not playing/singing in time is just generally, perfectly acceptable. Almost gives me a headache reading stuff like that
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  26. #96

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    We had a guitar player at a jam a couple years ago that was just plain horrible...in chatting with him over the course of several weeks I discovered that he thought everything was in 3/4 time...I gently suggested he work with a metronome and I would work with him if he'd like...we play mostly BG so I sent him a list of tunes with the chords and links to YT videos...we haven't seen him for some time now which is sad as he was clearly having fun when he sang but it's up to the person playing to work on things and make themselves better - if they reject advice, etc then that's their problem.
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by bigskygirl View Post
    We had a guitar player at a jam a couple years ago that was just plain horrible...in chatting with him over the course of several weeks I discovered that he thought everything was in 3/4 time
    Yeah, had a guy sitting in on a rehearsal. Just a buddy who was visiting. He said he wanted to do "Waltz Across Texas" and started picking and singing it. He said we needed to rearrange it a little to sound better. Well, what we did was play it in 3/4 time instead of 4/4. Lo and behold, it did sound better after we "rearranged" it.
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  28. #98

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    Yeah, had a guy sitting in on a rehearsal. Just a buddy who was visiting. He said he wanted to do "Waltz Across Texas" and started picking and singing it. He said we needed to rearrange it a little to sound better. Well, what we did was play it in 3/4 time instead of 4/4. Lo and behold, it did sound better after we "rearranged" it.
    Ha, yeah we worked hard but it was so hard to play along with him...he never really stayed in any particular time or strum pattern and then he'd do a little catch up maneuver to get in line with the lyrics since he was so all over the place. I think he just decided to quit coming which is too bad really, we all encouraged him and offered help but you know...lead a horse to water...

    I'm all for creativity and expression when the situation encourages it but this is just a regular jam of working people playing mostly standards for the last 40 years by ear, our group is very good at following along with timing issues but Pancho and Lefty was tough in 3/4 time...
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by bigskygirl View Post
    ....but this is just a regular jam of working people playing mostly standards for the last 40 years by ear....
    Those are the most fun of all, as far as I'm concerned.
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Solution: repertoire from Trout Mask Replica
    Wow! That was one of my highschool friend's faves. The friend with BAD timing and bad tone, and a practice space.

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