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Thread: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

  1. #51

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I admit I haven't read every single response here, but I'd like to hear more about the distinction you're making. Over the years, I've encountered many people who have bad timing. Not only in speeding up and slowing down a great deal, but in skipping beats in a tune. An example would be a vocal tune, where the last syllable of a lyric may fall on beat one or two of a measure, maybe followed by another full measure. The culprit skips beats and goes right into the next chord to start again with their lyrics -- leaving other musicians in the lurch. That sort of thing. Sometimes I try to keep up with an offender, but it drives me nuts. For the most part, I just stop providing backup for folk when that kind of thing is out of control.
    Yeah I agree there's a difference between "can't keep the beat" vs omitting entire measures but still keeping the foot-tapping rhythm going.

    My dad had a couple of tunes that he insisted on playing as 'crooked' tunes, with missing or extra measures. I tried to get him to play them normal but he wasn't interested in that, he liked them the way they were. But, he was very consistent - each and every time through the tune, it was the same timing - so at least anyone accompanying him knew what to expect if they'd heard him play it before.

    He kept a good beat otherwise, did not speed up or slow down, and note placement inside of each measure was as expected (he didn't read music, but by then *I* did read music and I tried to transcribe some of his stuff and that's what I found).

    For only a couple of tunes, it was easy to adapt to, at least for people who were sufficiently motivated (family & friends).

    More recently, at least historically speaking, another music-player I know has a different timing problem - they speed up, slow down, notes scattered all over the place like dumping notes out of a bag and just letting the notes randomly fall onto the paper, *and* combine that with choosing the absolute loudest instruments (concertinas, bagpipes, big loud Martin guitars to thrash chords on, etc) - a horrible combination, the bad rhythm/timing/whatever throws everyone else off. I don't even try to jam there anymore, the only person who still jams there is the guy's girlfriend (she's a good accompanist who has taken on the herculean task of trying to make him sound better - not sure if she's helping or just "enabling", though). I think a big part of that fellow's problem is way *way* too much reliance on printed sheet music, he can't function without it even for tunes he's played (badly) for years. I think if he wasn't so stubborn he could learn to just temporarily ditch the sheet music and *listen* (what a concept!) to the sounds he's producing and how they fit in (or not) with the tune, that might be a path to improvement. The guy refuses to use metronomes or backing tracks because he regards those as being "for beginners" so he could do with a little attitude adjustment as well.

  2. #52

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by gspiess View Post
    nothing is more challenging than keeping time in a church filled with white people!


    That's why I stopped going to church...

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

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  4. #53
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    I think of timing and rhythm separately too, but maybe not exactly the same way? Or maybe it is the same.

    For me, timing is ... to hold a steady tempo. Not speed up, not slow down, and lock into a tempo with other musicians (which is a different skill from practicing with a metronome, and has to be learned). ...

    Rhythm is the groove, the heartbeat, the pulse of a tune that lives within the steady tempo.
    YEP! That´s just it!

    Think Johann Sebastian Bach: Everybody and their dog is of the opinion that Bach should be played like a typewriter. The metronome is ticking away and the one is allways on the click. This is what put off many people from listening to Bach music. Then listen to Pablo Casals, Pierre Fournier or Paul Tortellier play the Bach Cello suites. Here we have three masters that interpret the music in a groovy way. It´s not about hitting the click with the one. There is a nice Sierra Hull workshop video where she dares the people to use the metronome but have the click on the "and". This is a practice "trick" that I had previously learned from a jazz bass player. If you have the metronome click on the "and" you start to groove no matter what (provided that you catch on).

    When you look at timing, a prime example is classical music. It indeed does speed up and/or slow down. It´s part of the music. But they all do it together. Also when you listen to "Sally Goodin" on Tony Rice´s "Unit Of Measure" you will notice that the band speeds up and slows down. This is noticable because the tune is so incredibly fast that staying on time is practically impossible (the same happens with the Nashville Grass on Roll In My Sweet Baby´s Arms on the Bill Monroe Bean Blossom Album). But mainly the group is on time together and it´s not noticably wobbly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I admit I haven't read every single response here, but I'd like to hear more about the distinction you're making. Over the years, I've encountered many people who have bad timing. Not only in speeding up and slowing down a great deal, but in skipping beats in a tune. An example would be a vocal tune, where the last syllable of a lyric may fall on beat one or two of a measure, maybe followed by another full measure. The culprit skips beats and goes right into the next chord to start again with their lyrics -- leaving other musicians in the lurch. That sort of thing. Sometimes I try to keep up with an offender, but it drives me nuts. For the most part, I just stop providing backup for folk when that kind of thing is out of control.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    One number which suffers from the 'not letting enough measures come and go" is Sunny Side Of The Mountain. Depending on who's singing it, the band/rhythm section needs to *listen* to the vocalist and react seamlessly to what he/she is doing. There will be lengthier parts to the vocals that are at the whim of the singer. We as acompanyists need to adjust to the ebb and flow of the thing. When there is an instrumental solo in this tune, it's mostly regular - no drawing out the chords/lines/measures.
    When you are talking about dropping (half a) beat you are bringing up another point that is unrelated to timing and rhythm. It may cause a problem playing together though.

    Dropping a beat (if properly done, like Jimmy Martin or Lester Flatt did) does not necessarily cause a disruption in the music. You just have to keep on your toes. A prime example is Bill Monroes "Tennessee Blues" in the original recording. The music ads up in the end though in the middle the chord changes are not on the beat.

    Not making enough pauses is an entirely different problem. I think that a song needs breathing room. That is why there is often a pause between lines or at the end of a verse/chorus. To disregard this breathing rule makes a song sound like reading a text without pauses.

    I´ll raise you another problem.

    Many times have I encountered that chord changes are carried out sloppy. Think "Last Thing On My Mind". (G) There´s a lesson too (C) late... Often enough have I encountered that the C is played on the "too" and not on the late. There are songs where you can debate about where the chord change may occur. But all in all it is very disturbing when someone is sloppy with the chord changes. This is caused by people not being familiar with the music that they play.

    Okay, enough for now. I´m off for my singing lesson (doing some ear training, trying to sing on key).
    Olaf

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  6. #54
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I haven`t read all of the answers to this question but I would suggest that they make sure that when they practice their vocals that a whole band be there to allow them to hear the beat and keep their timing correct, not everyone will be out of time...I had a guitar player once that sometimes missed a run when changing chords and he would not get back in time with the rest of the band so we suggested that he stop making those runs...If your friend and the fellow are trying to learn songs without good timing behind them they will always be fighting this problem.....A good hard driving guitar and/or bass will do wonders...

  7. #55

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by peterleyenaar View Post
    ... I have observed some musicians tapping their feet totally out of time almost no timing at all, their playing reflects it, really weird to see that.
    I've seen that with dancers too (not contradance or line dance or anything structured like that, but just regular rock-n-roll freeform dance such as one might see in a bar gig), some dancers' movements have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the beat of the song, they just jump around randomly.

    I'm not being critical, nothing any rhythm-challenged dancer could do would adversely affect the music itself, so it's just an observation of how different people perceive rhythm differently.

    As long as they're enjoying the music and having fun, that's the whole point of dance anyway.

    But it's a huge contrast to other dancers on the same floor and the exact same song, who do a lot more precise job of timing their movements to the beat of the music.

    Myself, I've always preferred the latter, to get into the 'groove' of each song or tune. But there are some songs that don't even seem to have much of a 'groove', they're just a straight boring 1-2-3-4 over and over, ugh, not inspiring, I always figured that's a good excuse to sit that one out and rest up for a while and wait for the band to play something that's actually interesting. I think a lot of it is the bass - a good bass line goes a long ways towards setting a cool groove that gets dancers out on the floor.

    But back to the topic, one wonders how much of rhythm-challenge is not due to lack of training, but perhaps some other condition.

    I know that people can actually be "tone deaf" (used to be called "tin ear", some of those in my family) where they can't discern pitch, it's an actual physical condition, so could it be possible that there could be some other physical/medical condition that makes it so people have difficulty discerning where the beat is?

    Ok I just found something on Wikipedia, in the "amusia" article, in the part about "temporal relations":

    "The brain analyzes the temporal (rhythmic) components of music in two ways: (1) it segments the ongoing sequences of music into temporal events based on duration, and (2) it groups those temporal events to understand the underlying beat to music. Studies on rhythmic discrimination reveal that the right temporal auditory cortex is responsible for temporal segmenting, and the left temporal auditory cortex is responsible for temporal grouping. Other studies suggest the participation of motor cortical areas in rhythm perception and production. Therefore, a lack of involvement and networking between bilateral temporal cortices and neural motor centers may contribute to both congenital and acquired amusia."

    From earlier in the article:

    "Two main classifications of amusia exist: acquired amusia, which occurs as a result of brain damage, and congenital amusia, which results from a music-processing anomaly present since birth."

    I guess I'll go read the rest of that article now... looks interesting. I'm not a doctor, so my comprehension of medical stuff is limited. It's amazing how much of what we consider to be 'talent' might actually be just the result of how neurons and stuff interact... or something like that.

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  9. #56

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Olaf makes a very good point and it's somewhat related to timing and rhythm, that is phrasing. Where and when the melody (either sung or played) comes in or ends, in the rhythmic context of a song, is extremely important to how well you can accompany the song. The melody can start on the downbeat of 1, but it may not come in until 1 and. By then, some players/singers will be either be a half beat ahead or behind.

    This is an issue with myself and a guy I play with after our Wed. nite BG jam. A favorite tune of ours is "The Weight" by The Band and damn if he doesn't start singing "I pulled into Nazareth..." right on the 1 downbeat while I start singing it on 1 and. Throws us off every time. I think we need to sit down with the recording and decide when the vocals begin (and end).

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  10. #57

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I think of timing and rhythm separately too, but maybe not exactly the same way? Or maybe it is the same.

    For me, timing is either the natural talent or enough training to hold a steady tempo. Not speed up, not slow down, and lock into a tempo with other musicians (which is a different skill from practicing with a metronome, and has to be learned). That's timing, for me anyway.

    Rhythm is the groove, the heartbeat, the pulse of a tune that lives within the steady tempo. Rhythm skill is the bass player knowing how to play just a hair behind the beat in a Blues or R&B tune, or John Bonham's kick drum doing the same in Led Zep. Or doing the opposite and pushing just a hair ahead of the beat without speeding up, to generate excitement in other genres.
    It is interesting to consider these different definitions.

    I have understood rhythm to be the thing you get with a metronome, consistency in tempo and not speeding up or slowing down unless you intend to.

    Timing, I have thought of as where you start and stop your lines in the measure. It can also include having the right number of beats per measure or adding and dropping beats if intentional. That has to be practiced with accompaniment or backing tracks. I have found pickup notes, where you are not starting on the one count to be a challenge here.

    Groove would be the flow and smoothness. It is more difficult to define clearly.

    Phrasing would be whether you are ahead of or behind the beat.

    My understanding of the terms seems to be kind of opposite of what was written above by Folded Path. Most of the people posting seem to use timing in this way. Rhythm seems to be used inconsistently. I am not sure what is correct.

  11. #58
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Timing is the first fundamental part of rhythm. There is typically a "beat" around which a groove is constructed.
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  12. #59

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Timing is the first fundamental part of rhythm.
    Right. Time (often used interchangeably with 'feel') is the essence. Time is deployed variously (syncopations, accents, etc) to effect various 'rhythms.' Rhythms (in music) are various expressions or 'musical usage' of time.

    The colloquialisms are many in communicating about feeling. Groove, for example, is typically employed to express everything from specific rhythmic implementation or nuance to feel, sense, so on..

  13. #60
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    Think Johann Sebastian Bach: Everybody and their dog is of the opinion that Bach should be played like a typewriter. The metronome is ticking away and the one is allways on the click. This is what put off many people from listening to Bach music. Then listen to Pablo Casals, Pierre Fournier or Paul Tortellier play the Bach Cello suites...
    Not to speak of Jethro Tull

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  14. #61
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    When you are talking about dropping (half a) beat you are bringing up another point that is unrelated to timing and rhythm. It may cause a problem playing together though.

    Dropping a beat (if properly done, like Jimmy Martin or Lester Flatt did) does not necessarily cause a disruption in the music. You just have to keep on your toes. A prime example is Bill Monroes "Tennessee Blues" in the original recording. The music ads up in the end though in the middle the chord changes are not on the beat.
    Gonna have to politely disagree on this.

    Yes, solo artists with great timing can effectively add or drop beats for effect. Yes, bands with great timing can follow a vocalist in doing the same for effect. AlanN mentioned that in a later post.

    That has nothing to do with the amateurish inability to properly hear the required beats of a tune, and consistently jump timing in vocal numbers ... as I have witnessed often from individuals in 50+ years of playing. Also, I used to believe that a person who can't get it, just can't get it. No hope for them. Now that I've read, studied and listened more to teachers and opinions, I've heard that some folks can be helped, but I've never seen one cured, personally.

    I guess it doesn't matter in the end, as long as you have fun playing music. I like to play with folk who are on the same page, timing-wise.

    I play with some pretty good musicians here and there, and it's been my experience that they all get frustrated when someone wanders in and offends timing in the way described.

    By the same token, crooked tunes need to be learned ... it is difficult for most musicians with really good timing to improvise and play on the fly to a crooked tune they don't know, like Santa Ana's Retreat or Doc Watson's version of Little Sadie where the next-to-last measure of the verse (A7) has 3 beats in a 4/4 tune.
    Last edited by Mark Gunter; Jun-15-2018 at 12:23pm.
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  15. #62

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    You clearly missed my tongue planted firmly in my check, (for future reference, the presence of a winking emojicon is a pretty good clue). I suggest bourbon, as you are wound way too tight. Yes Willie's impeccable sense of timing is what allows him to play around the beat instead of
    on the beat and anyone with even a modicum of musical knowledge has to appreciate his genius.
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I have a friend with (I must admit) very good rhythmic pulse.
    if she thinks I'm straying she taps her foot a bit harder or stares pointedly at her foot.
    I don't mind. I spend too much time playing on my own and my rhythm has got a bit ragged.
    She is quite petite and known in her mandolin group as the MetroGnome.

    I know this because she said, "Do you know what they call me in the mandolin group?
    Me: Hitler
    Her: MetroGnome!
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  17. #64
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
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    one can be forgiven for not knowing what an emoji is, but bourbon is the elixir of life
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  19. #65
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    As far as dropping or adding beats, after 30 plus years as a Catholic church musician I have gotten used to extra measures at the ends of lines or missing measures at the ends of choruses. Heck sometimes the whole congregation has done it wrong for so long there is little use in trying to play it right. I am convinced there is some course given to Catholic Organist that consists of the following two "facts". One, slower is holier, and two every line deserves an extra measure. :D
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  21. #66
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    As far as dropping or adding beats, after 30 plus years as a Catholic church musician I have gotten used to extra measures at the ends of lines or missing measures at the ends of choruses. Heck sometimes the whole congregation has done it wrong for so long there is little use in trying to play it right. I am convinced there is some course given to Catholic Organist that consists of the following two "facts". One, slower is holier, and two every line deserves an extra measure. :D
    Man, y'all are killin' me with these stories. All the churches (Protestant) I've attended have song leaders with no timing issues. As a kid, once my voice had changed, I started choir in church in a tiny rural community in Louisiana and a distant cousin who was choir director was a big influence on me, what a great music teacher she was. We did everything in four part harmony and in time. From the age of four or five I was learning to sing songs from Burl Ives, Hank Williams, Homer & Jethro and other records, including keeping time.

    Just have to bow out of here, I can't cotton to the idea that willy nilly timing is OK in public recitals or performances.

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  23. #67

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    The quickest way to kill all musical feeling is to adhere to a strict beat a la a click track recording. But you do need to be able to do that in order to deviate, and when you deviate you need folks who can listen and adapt. I get to play with a very good drummer once in a while who doesn't even need a heads up that you are going to change time signatures in the middle of a verse. He has an extraordinary ability to listen. Someone who cant keep time with other people who can lack this ability.

    I love to be the worst musician in a room. So much can be learned. I like to be good enough they don't mind playing with me though. That is the best situation. I also don't mind putting in the practice to do better next time.

    Ever play with someone who doesn't? Muffs the same part over and over? Yuck.
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    One thing that annoys me greatly is the singer not waiting long enough before coming in with the next verse, not letting the requisite measures play out.
    That extra measure coming out of the solo is not intuitive from the unwashed side of the fence. When I learned Love Please Come Home I found it posted on YT with and without. Our group plays it without. It sounds way better with

    It's a good point. Thx!

  26. #69
    mandolin slinger Steve Ostrander's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I have perfect rhythm, it's the damn metronome that's off.
    Living’ in the Mitten

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I once knew a drummer who tended to rush, not enough to get kicked out, just a little here and there, enough to sometimes be annoying, and often enough it was noticable. He worked on it and after about a year it stopped, no more comments from the BL not to rush.

    The drummer was me.

    I blame all those years of playing alone, easy to develop bad habits, my timing was perfect when I was a kid. After I got back into a band, it took a year or so for my timing to settle in, it was very frustrating during that time, and lots of time spent with a metronome.

    Funny thing is my timing settled down on all the instruments I play, I rushed (slightly) everywhere, on any instrument, now my timing is a lot more solid, including mandolin.

    I know old guys (like me), whose timing deteriorated with age and refused to fix it or gave up, and their bands just live with it. I didn't want that to be me.
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  29. #71

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Solution: repertoire from Trout Mask Replica

    By the way, do you have tab for that?

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I read an article recently where the school was planning on changing all the clocks to read time digitally because many students could not read an analog clock. Maybe as time goes by the ability to hold a steady beat and count the measures will slowly diminish as it will be an all digital world where the classical interpretation of what is music and pleasing to listen to will change. Yet the beat goes on.

  31. #73

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    ... the school was planning on changing all the clocks to read time digitally because many students could not read an analog clock. ...
    I thought schools were supposed to teach stuff... is that such a wild concept? Or are analog clocks now like slide rules? (Hey, I still miss my old slide rule.)

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    I thought schools were supposed to teach stuff... is that such a wild concept? Or are analog clocks now like slide rules? (Hey, I still miss my old slide rule.)
    I still have my old slide rule - never breaks down or needs batteries! LOL!!!

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  34. #75

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    Willie Nelson made a career out of never landing on the beat, either singing or playing.
    Perhaps, but the band is following him, and if you see him play in person, they all watch Willy, so as long as they are not fighting each other to keep time, it sounds great.
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