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Thread: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

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    Question People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Not sure if this is the place to post this.....but maybe someone has some suggestions?

    Maybe I'm wrong here....but I kinda feel like if a person plays bad rhythm and thinks they can play with other people, then that is a "problem person," not so much musically as personally. A close friend of mine has been dating a guy she thought she was going to be able to sing with. She is an excellent singer and very, very musical. She wants to sing harmony with him, but his tunes are sometimes off, and his rhythm is off and she doesn't know how to handle it. (My personal feeling is that the two of them have no future together! It's a new relationship!) Although this is just the two of them, the same problem could occur with a mandolin player who "jams-up" (messes up) a jam by playing loud and misses the beats, etc etc Both she and I tend to be very courteous and polite and we don't want to just lay it onto the person rudely that they don't know what they are doing. I guess this is a psychology post as much as a music post. I'm sure many of us have encountered this problem so maybe this will be a useful discussion!

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    If your friend and he are planning to perform in public, then this issue needs to be discussed prior to an embarrassing outing. One way perhaps to broach the topic would be to record them doing a couple of songs (nothing fancy, just on a smart phone or Zoom), then listen to it critically. It can't be an attack, which would likely just tick the guy off, but it can be approached in a way that allows him to hear how he's off and potentially work on improving his deficits. Practicing with a metronome also has a way of making rhythm issues glaring. If he wants to improve and make their musical relationship work (personal relationship aside), he'll be willing to work at it. If he can't handle it, then, well, it may not be worth the emotional investment...or at least not the musical investment...
    Chuck

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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I have bad rhythm and know it. Metronomes always sound like they're speeding up and slowing down. One of the people I play with a lot has bad rhythm but doesn't know it. He comes in behind the beat all the time and doesn't seem to realize it.

    No amount of lecturing or instruction or reminders will change our senses of time. We both do better with a strong drummer or rhythm player to move us along. If you can, provide a strong, loud rhythm to keep your friend in line. There's not much else you can do.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    This is dangerous ground, I’m not the best rhythm keeper but, bless his heart, my guitar player can go off on a tangent and never come back! The way we deal with it is stay patient, after this long though, the patience wears a little thin, we have been lucky to have has very solid bass players over the years which helps but, there have been times.....
    Be kind and patient, it will be the best thing, I like the video or ZOOM idea, it’s cold hard fact, not someone complaining. We’ve done that, we’ve been heated about th He’s that have happened at gigs, the boys and I have been doing this so long they are closer to me than my own blood family! It’s a rare thing and I treasure it. Sometimes it needs a little tough love too.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    A solo recording should reveal it all to the player. Time is perceived very differently between playing and listening. Once the issue is obvious, a metronome is the next step. Perception can be altered.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Worst is a bass player with poor rhythm. I have a buddy who plays bass and is all into playing good music, he just can't keep time. Serious bummer because his intonation is great! I keep urging him to practice with a metronome, but he doesn't.

    Also, this is a learnable skill. It takes lots of practice for the temporally challenged, but practice can improve the situation. I play at a jam where a certain banjo player would show up and kill the jam with his really bad (and loud) rhythm. He became known as "Jam-wrecker John". But once he was made aware of the issue, in a friendly way, he spent a lot of time working on it, and improved greatly. Now he's known as "John-wrecker Jams!" Because he jams really well now.

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    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Know why Karaoke is the way it is? 'Cuz people who aren't (musically) good can't tell that they're not good.

    My theory is that, when jamming with someone, I can tell if they have less raw talent than me, but I can't tell if they have more. Everybody I've enjoyed playing with 'cuz they were just as good as me – odds are they were better (and polite about it).

    So go easy on the guy. And keep in mind that someone with more talent than you may have the same opinion of your abilities, and wouldn't you hope that they think that you have the best intentions?

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Not everyone has the time thing come to them naturally. You haven’t quite described—is one or both of them playing an instrument? You also havent described how you fit into the situation.

    It seems a bit off that you apparently want her to dump the guy because they are not yet making beautiful music together...are you suggesting that you and she play well together and he is bringing that down? You cant tell her who to date, but if you want to try performing—that is where you want this to go?—with her as a duo, not a trio, then you just have to bite the bullet and tell her that. Or one of you has to take leadership and talk to him about counting out beats, try using a click track or metronome etc.

    Believe me, this is far from unusual—some folks can have perfectly fine relationships but not be musically compatible, and sooner or later they will figure it out, and its going to be awkward. You’ll get through it.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    You don't know what you don't know. People who have poor pitch, cannot tell they are off pitch. People with very poor rhythm will not sense that they are off. The recording thing helps a lot IF the person can hear what is wrong. Look no further than YouTube to see Millions who obviously have no clue.

    If they don't get it after the recording, I would tell them in the nicest way possible, taking on some of the blame myself. Such as "we are out of time", et's practice with a metronome.
    Robert Fear
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Thanks to all of you for your KIND, sweet and understanding comments and potential tools to use for solving the problem. My friend says she wants to handle this herself and wants to do her own research. She also said that it's not a serious problem, which I'm really glad for her and him about! Thanks for making this a useful discussion. I really like the idea about recording ourselves, if I get into a situation such as this in the future, myself. As for a metronome, maybe it's easier for some people than others to stay with the beat of a metronome. I'm practicing with one every day, and some things I do fine by now, others, I get off the beat and have to get myself back on. I've never found the metronome easy to play with, but am determined to rein myself in. I've come a very long way in the maybe 2 months that I have been SYSTEMATICALLY playing daily with the metronome.

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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Solution: repertoire from Trout Mask Replica

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    That is a pain but unless you are close to this person there's not a whole lot you can do. Good luck.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Bill, thanks for asking about how I fit into the picture. Well, I don't at all -- just thought she might want to hear what forum members have to say but she doesn't. And at this point they are too new musically and personally to have discussed performing together. He plays the guitar, and I don't know how well, as she has not told me.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    A player with bad rhythm is like a bad driver, or someone who has had too much liquor and/or illegal substance - none one of them want to admit their shortcomings and only very rarely can you get them to see their mistake.

    Only once did I have to deal with a guy whose rhythm was off - and thankfully, it was all studio work, (two albums ) and no live performances. It is great when you can can simply rewind the tape and play off rhythm with him! (laugh) I am not sure what is worse, somebody with bad rhythm, or somebody who has absolutely no clue that they are playing out of tune.

    Unfortunately, your friend will probably not have an easy task . . . especially is she is unwilling to listen to advice from those who have had previous experience.

    To paraphrase George Santayana: 'Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.'

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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    "if it were done when 'tis done, then 'twer well it 'twer done quickly"
    (Macbeth, act 1 scene 7)
    I am a strong believer in the "band aid" method. If it were me (it definitely is) I'd want to know before I looked like a fool. Bite the bullet and tell them. It's always better in the long run.
    We are the music makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Mike and Roger, Roger, good point: "Bite the bullet and tell them. It's always better in the long run." The problem is that some people who have bad rhythm refuse to admit it. They are SURE their rhythm is good. They are SURE that they are really good players. I taught piano for years and years. I learned how to talk to a potential student on the phone for a few minutes before I would accept them into my clientele. There were people who told me on the phone that they were very good players -- NOT. Others who said they were poor players -- who were a whole lot better than me. So I told new callers that information, and said the only way I'd know how to teach them would for them to come to a lesson and I would evaluate where they were at musically. I could tell where I person was not only musically,but also technically, in about 2-3 minutes. Very simple things I had them do -- like imitate me when I played Middle C-D-E on the piano. Some people just dashed it off at a speed I was not playing at. Others played it exactly as I played it. Others, their hand did all sorts of weird and awkward contortions when they played it. Stuff like that.

  23. #17

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    If you are not playing with them then it is their problem and the best thing to do is to stay clear of it, for your sake and theirs. Music is personal and a minefield if you imply criticism of it.

    If you are playing with them then it is more difficult and you have to decide whether you wish to play with them or not. Timing and rhythm is relative and can be improved if they will work at it and you have patience. I am not naturally gifted at rhythm but have worked with it, improving to the point where my teacher asked me to work with other people to help get their rhythm more solid on a couple of occasions. It took several years for me to get to that point. At high speed I still break down. The same thing applies to singing, it can be improved dramatically with practice over time.

    My main playing partner used to have lot of difficulties with rhythm and timing. She has improved her rhythm to where it is really very solid, especially on chops, but finds timing of lead lines difficult sometimes, adding and losing beats per measure. It is a touchy subject because some people have approached it very unkindly and untactfully with her. I try to help but have to watch what I say and how I say it. The music is very important to her, like most of us, and anything that implies criticism becomes personal.

    There is a banjo player I simply will not play with. If he comes to jam I leave because he plays so badly out of time, out of rhythm and loudly. He simply is not listening to himself or anyone else. The last straw was when he jumped into a session I was having with a singer to work out a couple of songs. He came in playing in the wrong key as well as out of rhythm, kept playing in the wrong key for a verse and a half then argued and got mad when I told him he was in the wrong key. There was video on YouTube for a while of a session with him varying from a beat ahead to a measure behind the rest of the group for a whole song. Mercifully it was taken down. I quit trying to be polite there and simply started saying No.

    That can be a decision but it has consequences. I have had people let me know in subtle and unsubtle ways they thought they were too good to play with me before. Some of them were right. Others were shocked to find that I moved on to find better friends if they were going to act that way.

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    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Solution: repertoire from Trout Mask Replica
    Niles, you made my day. But it really takes some chops to play like Captain Beefheart.

    Quote Originally Posted by stringalong View Post
    Thanks to all of you for your KIND, sweet and understanding comments and potential tools to use for solving the problem. My friend says she wants to handle this herself and wants to do her own research. She also said that it's not a serious problem, which I'm really glad for her and him about! Thanks for making this a useful discussion. I really like the idea about recording ourselves, if I get into a situation such as this in the future, myself. As for a metronome, maybe it's easier for some people than others to stay with the beat of a metronome. I'm practicing with one every day, and some things I do fine by now, others, I get off the beat and have to get myself back on. I've never found the metronome easy to play with, but am determined to rein myself in. I've come a very long way in the maybe 2 months that I have been SYSTEMATICALLY playing daily with the metronome.
    I think that there is more to having bad rythm.

    Your headline is about having bad rythm and not admitting it. This means that the bad rhythmicist has to be aware of his condition. Your first post does not explain whether the person knows about having a bad rhythm.

    If a person has bad rhythm and knows it without admitting it you either have to put up with the bad rhythm if you want to play with that person or you´ll have to kiss that person bye bye.

    If a person does not know about their bad rhythm it is the fellow player who has to determine, where the bad rhythm comes from, if this condition can be changed and you may therefore work towards maybe not telling the person but working on better rhythm. This may be a problem though. Because you have to know how to better the rhythm. That means you´ll have to know how to make your fellow musician play better.

    From my experience:
    - I have a dear friend who sings very (!) well and who is a rhythmically good guitar player and quite a solid bass player. We have a cool relationship without a stress factor. Yet last time when we played together I kept her on her toes quite a bit with the tunes that I threw in the ring. She noticed, was okay with it but if we played on a very regular basis I would choose less demanding music.

    - I tried to coax a professional guitarist (Irish music, baroque, classical, Klezmer) who is an equally acomplished (classical) guitar teacher and composer into an informal (prospective) duo project (think Turlough O´Carolan meets Bill Monroe/Doc Watson). We sounded doggoned awful on the bluegrass numbers. The rhythm was sometimes painfully off! It was truely terrible (for me). I wondered why he did not comment on the really OFF rythm, the NO drive, the WHACKY sound... This was until we played a song where - while the singing went on - we played (BAD) rhythm underneath. It struck me like lightning: He kept the beat okay, but he played a different rhythm. That was why we were not together. I immediately stopped and explained what I heard (I am self taught, therefore my explanation is unorthodox). He grasped my explanation and the rhythm worked. But he just didn´t get it before. So it might be that the more accomplished musician might not get the problem or might not know what to do (even if the solution would stare you in the eye).

    What I really like is authenticity. I can accept a certain lack of accomplishment when the performance itself conveys the meaning. What this translates to is:
    - If you´re not accomplished don´t try to impress people by trying to play complicated music. Stick to what you are comfortable with (while pushing your boundaries)
    - Try to push your boundaries without becoming generic/stale (the metronome is not the everhealing solution).
    Olaf

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Good stories and points, all, Olaf. You wrote: "- If you´re not accomplished don´t try to impress people by trying to play complicated music. Stick to what you are comfortable with (while pushing your boundaries)" This is good advice. I was working off and on on four new songs for the guitar. They were originals by various singer-songwriters. I love the songs, and worked really, really hard on them. For months! But finally, after months of hard work, and lessons, too! I came to the conclusion that these were all beyond my ability to do well. It would have been better of the teacher had just told me that. As a younger person, I played a lot of piano pieces that were too hard for me, and I did not play them well. I tried, tried, tried. Then I got an excellent teacher, and he told me outright, "You don't have the technique for these pieces." It was all very low key, and he was the kindest man alive, so, although I took a bit of an ego blow, I didn't mind. He told me how to practice properly, gave me pieces that were within my technical level, and said I should stop playing EVERYTHING I was currently playing, BUT that in a few years my new and better technique (which we was teaching me) would take over, and I could then take up those pieces anew. It worked.

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Some people feel the song/tune differently and have a weird rhythm. If you get used to it, it can work and not be a problem. I have noticed those who play solo have a harder time playing with others. When I played solo I could change the tempo for feeling as I felt for the song. Playing with others made me realize that doesn't work only alone. I played with a wonderful player for years and it took us a while to be able to play well together. Once we did it was magic and I don't know if there has been anyone since that had the magic we had. After we stopped and a few years went by it was again hard as his solo style, which was wonderful, was not conducive to playing with others. Time may allow them to work fine together.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    I know a banjo player that used to show up drunk,and out of tune,and then start singing,,, but the best advice is probably mind your own business,sit back and enjoy the show..

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    Scroll Lock Austin Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    We had a guitar player in our choir for a while whose timing was so bad that he threw all the other musicians off. The irony was that he had a great voice, he just couldn't fall in and play with anyone else. It took a lot effort for me to tune him out and ignore him.

    It drove me NUTS, but my wife was a singer, and never noticed it and thought I was overreacting.
    A quarter tone flat and a half a beat behind.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    First person " whats the most important thing when playing"
    Second person "timing!"
    First person "music?"
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Willie Nelson made a career out of never landing on the beat, either singing or playing.
    2012 Weber Bitterroot F5.

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  34. #25

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein View Post
    I have bad rhythm and know it. Metronomes always sound like they're speeding up and slowing down. One of the people I play with a lot has bad rhythm but doesn't know it. He comes in behind the beat all the time and doesn't seem to realize it.

    No amount of lecturing or instruction or reminders will change our senses of time. We both do better with a strong drummer or rhythm player to move us along. If you can, provide a strong, loud rhythm to keep your friend in line. There's not much else you can do.
    You sure about that, or maybe I'm not understanding the sense of time. I started out trying to teach myself then took some lessons with Don Julian and spent about 6-8 months pretty much just working on rhythm and I got it, my rhythm is much much better. Maybe I had the sense of time but due to bad technique & strumming habits my rhythm was moving target. Anyway I used to always latch on to the drummer now some times I'll give him a look when He's off the beat ! I'm far from perfect but have improved with good instruction and practice.
    Lou

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