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Thread: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

  1. #101
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    Willie Nelson made a career out of never landing on the beat, either singing or playing.
    Ah, but the beat he does land on is magical...
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  3. #102
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    But then there are also songs with “hiccups” too. Listen to the old recording of Larry Sparks doing “Smokey Mountain Memories” the changes in the first verse are different from all the following verses. My guitar player simply cannot hear the slight rhythmic “hiccup” associated with the chord changes. Of course, he does not hear the fact that the chords are different either so, I just quit trying to sing it with him.
    This is also a guy who sometimes forgets what time signature a song he’s written is in too. I love him like a brother but sometimes....
    Timothy F. Lewis
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  5. #103

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    This is also a guy who sometimes forgets what time signature a song he’s written is in too. I love him like a brother but sometimes....
    We have a guy like that too. He's not writing his own songs, but the ones he does, he knows the words very well and has a great 'country' voice.

    I can forgive it when he kicks off 'White Dove' in 4-4- time. Maybe a momentary brain fart. But it happens when he starts 'Waltz Across Texas' too. And there's a pretty good clue in the title of that one.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

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  7. #104
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    'Waltz Across Texas' too. And there's a pretty good clue in the title of that one.
    I know, it's rather intuitive, no? Actually, the post above that mentions this number says something about 4-4. Never have heard this song in anything other than 3.

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  9. #105
    Registered User John Garcia's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    My advice is don't play with people who don't bring you joy.....Life is too short. I am very selective about who I play with any more. Being able to count is a pre-requisite
    AKA "golfunit"

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  11. #106
    Registered User John Garcia's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    Willie Nelson made a career out of never landing on the beat, either singing or playing.
    What Willie does has Taste and Tone, so, he is magical. He did not make "a career out of never landing on the beat". He delighted people with his songs, as sung by a master.
    AKA "golfunit"

  12. #107

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Thanks Alan, I hadn't noticed that post by DHopkins:

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    Yeah, had a guy sitting in on a rehearsal. Just a buddy who was visiting. He said he wanted to do "Waltz Across Texas" and started picking and singing it. He said we needed to rearrange it a little to sound better. Well, what we did was play it in 3/4 time instead of 4/4. Lo and behold, it did sound better after we "rearranged" it.
    I guess I'm glad if someone else out there is experiencing the same Razzle Dazzle!
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  13. #108
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by John Garcia View Post
    What Willie does has Taste and Tone, so, he is magical. He did not make "a career out of never landing on the beat". He delighted people with his songs, as sung by a master.
    Yet another person wound too tight to recognize the tongue in cheek nature of my post. I suggested bourbon to the last guy. But you live in Oregon so you have the ability to have a legal toke. Take advantage of it.
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  15. #109
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Lester "Roadhog" Moran!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZUr_PJ0nec



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJAbWk8od74


    This, on the other hand, is the complete opposite of "bad rhythm"! … (Ottopasuuna, from Finland, the best country in the world!)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhU3HY6Pbpk


    I am still only seeing black boxes for all youtube postings, so I am including the URLs for those seeing the same nothings can go directly to the YouTube pages.

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  17. #110
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    ... One, slower is holier, and two every line deserves an extra measure. :D
    Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

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  19. #111

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    When I was in school (40 years ago) I played in a GB (general bull____) band for weddings, bar mitzvahs, anniversaries, etc. doing covers. We could always tell what kind of night we were going to have by the end of the first song, based on audience clapping-along dynamics. Random off-beat= general GB night. Regular measured clapping on the 1st and 3rd beat as opposed to the 2nd and 4th = terrible, horrible, nightmare gig dominated by men in grey slacks held up with white patent leather belts, and tassled loafers asking for "Alfie".....

    Moral is, bad rhythm in band members can be worked on or eliminated. Bad/no rhythm by the audience is a really really bad experience.

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  21. #112
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    When I was in school (40 years ago) I played in a GB (general bull____) band for weddings, bar mitzvahs, anniversaries, etc. doing covers. We could always tell what kind of night we were going to have by the end of the first song, based on audience clapping-along dynamics. Random off-beat= general GB night. Regular measured clapping on the 1st and 3rd beat as opposed to the 2nd and 4th = terrible, horrible, nightmare gig dominated by men in grey slacks held up with white patent leather belts, and tassled loafers asking for "Alfie".....

    Moral is, bad rhythm in band members can be worked on or eliminated. Bad/no rhythm by the audience is a really really bad experience.
    'Benny and the Jets' by Elton John has the audience clapping on the 1 and 3... Glyn Johns' brilliance.
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  22. #113

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    'Benny and the Jets' by Elton John has the audience clapping on the 1 and 3... Glyn Johns' brilliance.



    Trust me, we were absolutely NOT playing Elton John at these gigs....remember Tommy Smothers counting a song in?? (ONE..ta-three....FOUR). I am certainly dating myself, but THAT is more like what I am talking about...

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  24. #114
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    Trust me, we were absolutely NOT playing Elton John at these gigs....remember Tommy Smothers counting a song in?? (ONE..ta-three....FOUR). I am certainly dating myself, but THAT is more like what I am talking about...
    Hmm, my funniest memory of the Smothers Bros was Tommy playing in one key and singing in another. One of the bands we play with has such trouble moderating their volume that my wife, who sings and plays guitar normally very nicely, has done that accidentally once or twice. Great laughs!!!
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Well to be fair, where Roadhog and the boys really shine is in live performance, alas too seldom preserved. But here they are on the Ralph Emory show (music starts at 2:45 for those who want to skip past the band introductions):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPMbzjunjIQ

  26. #116
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    My theory (yes, another) is that European-descent folks who clap on the 1 and 3 don't think that they're clapping on the 1 and the 3 – they're feeling the song in 2/4 time, and they're clapping on the 1.

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  28. #117
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it




    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it is a problem for the "play by ear, this is how I learned it crowd". I am one of those people who have a folk, bluegrass, country, old time background but I live with a classical musician who plays full time in a concert band. When you read standard notation and follow a conductor it is all about counting and playing the music as written. So lets admit that what we're talking about here is a problem associated with a consideration of musical education and practice to a certain rhythmic standard. If you're a street musician like me playing a song with your cohorts is a matter of agreement through a mutual feeling for the beat. People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it is similar to people who can't sing and don't admit it. We must find a tactful way of letting them know without upsetting their delicate sensibilities.

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  31. #119
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    I know, it's rather intuitive, no? Actually, the post above that mentions this number says something about 4-4. Never have heard this song in anything other than 3.
    That was my point. The guy neither had nor understood rhythm. And, I don't think he knew that all waltzes were in 3/4 time.
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  32. #120
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    That was my point. The guy neither had nor understood rhythm. And, I don't think he knew that all waltzes were in 3/4 time.
    Unless they aren't. Leonard Finseth collected at least one "hot waltz" that was 4/4 time. I don't have enough experience to have figured out the history. But it seems strange to me.

    On guitar, I've backed up a couple of waltzes that have an extra beat in the B part. Was more a set dance and the beat was required for the move.

    And let's not get into polksas on the main group page. That's an entirely different problem. (And one that I'm not sure I'll ever play to some folks satisfaction. Whether the melody or rhythm.)
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  33. #121
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post



    Not bad, for a banjo player...
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  34. #122
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    The guy neither had nor understood rhythm.
    Like this...no rhythm at all..


  35. #123

    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it is a problem for the "play by ear, this is how I learned it crowd". I am one of those people who have a folk, bluegrass, country, old time background but I live with a classical musician who plays full time in a concert band. When you read standard notation and follow a conductor it is all about counting and playing the music as written. So lets admit that what we're talking about here is a problem associated with a consideration of musical education ...
    From what I've seen, "musical education" and fluently reading standard notation aren't always enough to solve a timing problem. It's one thing to understand the theory. It's something else entirely to apply that theory in one's own playing.

    The absolute all-time-worst-ever no-sense-of-rhythm jam-wrecker I've ever heard, has a Master's degree in music and he spent decades teaching music classes to little kids. He understands music theory quite well, and he can instantly locate any note from sheet music on dozens of different instruments, but on everything he plays, his sense of rhythm is atrocious. He cannot learn anything by ear, he has to have the dots, even for simple tunes.

    (But he won't tolerate anyone including himself being out of tune - he tunes up his instruments very precisely, with the assistance of high-end digital tuners - guess everyone is good at something!)

    Anyway, I don't see an automatic connection between bad timing and "learned everything by ear", vs good timing and "able to read standard notation".

    If anything, making the effort to learn something by ear (from a competent well-respected player) ought to make the timing *more* accurate, not less so. That is, assuming the person has the capability to *listen* to their own playing (there, we're back to listening again), and the self-honesty to notice errors and take corrective action.

    Obviously the best of both worlds is to combine written notation of some sort, with learning by ear as well - use both. Why not. Why limit oneself to just one source of new musical info. But still, the need to listen, even when playing solo... even more important in a group situation.

    Even without training in music theory or the ability to read written notes, it's helpful to just count. 1, 2, 3, 4. Or 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and. Whatever. Pretty basic, not complicated.

    And of course when a person eventually acquires sufficient familiarity with a genre, they can often look at the written notes and get a general idea of what the tune sounds like - timing and all - without even having to pick up an instrument. It's like being able to 'hear' a preview of the music in one's mind, without actually producing any sounds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    ... and practice to a certain rhythmic standard. ...
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    ... If you're a street musician like me playing a song with your cohorts is a matter of agreement through a mutual feeling for the beat. ...
    Yeah, as long as everyone plays in sync, shouldn't be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    ... People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it is similar to people who can't sing and don't admit it. We must find a tactful way of letting them know without upsetting their delicate sensibilities.
    From what I've seen, it's impossible. The worst-case ones never get the clue, they don't have the ability to hear themselves and to hear how their wacky playing screws it up for the rest of the group, as far as they're concerned any problems are someone else's fault. Any attempt at delicately "letting them know" (by diplomatic people who are qualified at such things) only results in them developing a 'persecution' complex where they feel that everyone, in every jam or session throughout all time, has it out for them personally.

    The solution? I have no idea. A solution might not even be possible for the probably small percentage of people who have an actual neurological disorder of some sort (as I mentioned earlier) - of course it would not be right to feel harshly towards people who have biological/neurological conditions they have no control of, it could happen to anyone as a result of injury or whatever. But that's contrasted with musical slackers who just don't take their music seriously enough to at least try to get it right.

  36. #124
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Platt View Post
    Unless they aren't. Leonard Finseth collected at least one "hot waltz" that was 4/4 time. I don't have enough experience to have figured out the history. But it seems strange to me.

    On guitar, I've backed up a couple of waltzes that have an extra beat in the B part. Was more a set dance and the beat was required for the move.

    And let's not get into polksas on the main group page. That's an entirely different problem. (And one that I'm not sure I'll ever play to some folks satisfaction. Whether the melody or rhythm.)
    You can name it what you like but, by definition, if it's not in triple time, it's not a waltz.
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  37. #125
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: People who have bad rhythm and don't admit it

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    You can name it what you like but, by definition, if it's not in triple time, it's not a waltz.
    Eh you’d better get the red pen out on whatever book of definitions you read that in.

    you could do one of those chevron things and write in 3/2, 3/4, 4/4, 5/8, 6/8, 8/4 & 11/4. I’m sure there are others, but those would cover most.... except maybe the hesitation waltz which I always think of as 3/4 with a stumble into 4/4 & strauss used to run some of his over a steady 2/4 or 4/4 beat. And it’s not just about shoehorning triple time into another time signature, some waltz dances run a continuous four or five step division & still make it dance like a waltz, they’re normally ones which sound more breathless and without a gap or heavy step.
    Eoin



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