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Thread: Mando Massage

  1. #26
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    So I guess you could say that you have a pancake mandolin now.
    Indeed!
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    I'm not convinced squeezing will have a lasting positive effect. But hugging your mandolin couldn't hurt.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  3. #28

    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Thank you,Stephen,for your post. "Subtle hearing" or what I have heard referred to as "big ears" is something
    that I see as a very desireable sense and one to which I constantly aspire.

    Another way to describe it might be "critical hearing". I am fortunate to have a pickin buddy with HUGE ears. He is in high demand from
    musicians who want the best sound from amplified performances. He can mix it just right. But his subtle perceptions are clearly evident
    in his living room acoustic tastes and tones.

    Have you hugged your mandolin today?

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    V7, I don't even bother playing mandolins, let alone hugging them. Sold my piano to move up here and haven't been playing a thing, or listening much. Have developed annoying hearing, getting appointment. Can still hear instruments fine, though!!!!!

    I set up my piano room perfectly once. Small room, grand piano, acoustic tile ceiling, gobs of rugs. It was great! Did the same for a listening room. Now headphones are so good.
    Stephen Perry

  5. #30

    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    People have propped them up in front of stereo speakers and played loud music at them for days, maybe weeks. They have developed systems to vibrate them, they have developed systems to strum them.
    This is truly incredible stuff. I blame the internet.

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  7. #31
    mandolin slinger Steve Ostrander's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    If you sit around and squeeze your mandolin for hours at a time, it may not sound better, but you'll get stronger hands.

    I don't know about you guys, but I hardly have time to practice, much less sit around and squeeze my mandolin.
    Living’ in the Mitten

  8. #32
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    ....P.S. Have 'ya ever noticed how all these artificial vibration tricks are always assumed to make a positive improvement in volume or tone? And never a change in the other direction, sounding worse or at least different than it would sound if you just played it normally? Human nature is funny like that.
    One of the more cogent and illuminating comments I have seen for a while. Yes why is that? Is it perhaps related to the phenomena happens when a violin player can identify the sound of a Stradivarius (with a knowing nod and a smile) when he/she knows/sees it is a Strad but cannot do so in a double blind test. Indeed human nature.
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  9. #33
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    One of the more cogent and illuminating comments I have seen for a while. Yes why is that? Is it perhaps related to the phenomena happens when a violin player can identify the sound of a Stradivarius (with a knowing nod and a smile) when he/she knows/sees it is a Strad but cannot do so in a double blind test. Indeed human nature.
    On the opposite side of this argument, I will gaurantee that suppressing the vibrations of a mando will always make it sound worse.

    If anything we want a mando to vibrate freely. No one knows what makes one mando sound better than another. Great luthiers may know how to make a great sounding mando, but none of them know why it sounds great.

    So until someone can discover the why, Ill keep an open mind.

  10. #34
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    On the opposite side of this argument, I will gaurantee that suppressing the vibrations of a mando will always make it sound worse.
    That is only the opposite side if you make the huge assumption that artificially vibrating your mandolin for some period of time enhances vibrations. There is no science behind that assumption
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    That is only the opposite side if you make the huge assumption that artificially vibrating your mandolin for some period of time enhances vibrations. There is no science behind that assumption
    I don't know what "enhance" means in this context. Squeezing makes for a more open sound more quickly. Not a miracle, but does something. Vibrating lightly might do something. I used to warm things up with a big WalMart vibrator working through mouse pads. Build a torture box once. That really woke the things up! They would go back to sleep after a while, but I got the non-scientific (other than observation and notes - wait, that's science) impression that the openness lingered. Then I found better things to do to mandolins.
    Stephen Perry

  12. #36
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    I don't know what "enhance" means in this context. Squeezing makes for a more open sound more quickly. Not a miracle, but does something. Vibrating lightly might do something. I used to warm things up with a big WalMart vibrator working through mouse pads. Build a torture box once. That really woke the things up! They would go back to sleep after a while, but I got the non-scientific (other than observation and notes - wait, that's science) impression that the openness lingered. Then I found better things to do to mandolins.
    no observation and notes by themselves are not science. What were the controls, how did you measure openness what physical changes in the wood did you observe?. What you have is anecdotes and personal opinion. Science is objective and repeatable. Anyhow I have better things to do than argue pseudo science. Nor do I want to get into a battle of mandolin knowledge with a man who has far more experience and skill than I do.
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    no observation and notes by themselves are not science. What were the controls, how did you measure openness what physical changes in the wood did you observe?. What you have is anecdotes and personal opinion. Science is objective and repeatable. Anyhow I have better things to do than argue pseudo science. Nor do I want to get into a battle of mandolin knowledge with a man who has far more experience and skill than I do.
    This is very true.

    Because (I guess) the enhancement process takes place over a period of time (days?) setting up a scientific blind test between non-enhanced and enhanced mandolins would be difficult -- but it could be done. Here is how in my opinion:

    First, secure a testing room that you can control the relative humidity and temperature.

    Second, assemble a set of 10 un-enhanced mandolins and label them "1" through "10" and allow them to equilibrate in the test room for 24 hours-- have one person tune them all up.

    Third, have a blind-folded, virtuoso mandolinist pay a certain piece(s) of music on each mandolin while making the best recordings with the highest fidelity that you possibly can. Label each recording "1-A", "2-A",....."10-A".

    Fourth, conduct the enhancement procedure on each mandolin.

    Fifth, adjust the test room to the same RH and temperature as before and allow the mandolins 24 hours to equilibrate again have the same person tune them all up again.

    Sixth, give the enhanced mandolins to the same blind-folded virtuoso again, in some randomized order, and have him play the same piece(s) again. This time label the recordings (using the same equipment as before) "1-B", "2_B",....."10-B".

    Seventh, now have a group of sophisticated mandolin devotees (like those on this forum for example) listen to the recordings played back in a some randomized order.

    Any person that can identify more then half of the A series and half of the B series is a person who can actually hear the "enhancement effect".

    This would be a lot of work and my guess is almost no one would succeed in beating chance on this test.

    BUT, even when this test would be performed and the results shown there will be some who still would claim that the enhancement works.

    In short I recommend that we not do the test and that instead that we keep "discussing" this topic for another decade or so!
    Bernie
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  16. #38
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    This is very true.

    Because (I guess) the enhancement process takes place over a period of time (days?) setting up a scientific blind test between non-enhanced and enhanced mandolins would be difficult -- but it could be done. Here is how in my opinion:
    No, that won't work because you've got a human being in the middle with all the un-repeatable and chaotic elements that implies. Here's what I've suggested in the past, which is objective and repeatable:

    First, forget all the subjective elements like an "open tone" or any other qualitative judgement about tone. The one claim that almost always accompanies claims about improvement with artificial vibration is that it increases volume. Volume is something we can measure, and there actually have been scientific studies showing humans associate higher volume with "better sound quality." So let's test that.

    Make a jig to hold a mandolin in a fixed position, and make a pendulum gadget to stroke a pick across the strings. Tune the mandolin to an open chord if you like, to better simulate actual playing conditions. A pendulum will always make a repeatable stroke if you start it from the same position. Set up a microphone at a fixed distance, and record the sound of the pick/pendulum stroking the strings.

    Now use whatever voodoo method you like... attached vibrators, placing it in front of loud speakers, etc. Then put it back in the jig, make another recording with the pendulum/pick, and throw that wave file into the audio editor of your choice. Compare with the original waveform. If there is a volume increase, it will be right there, plain as day! Digital audio workstations are really good at showing volume levels.

    To establish this as a general principle, repeat the test with a bunch of different mandolins. If it works on all of them, maybe you're on to something. Publish the method so others can recreate and verify it. Anything else is just subjective impression and blowing smoke.

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  18. #39
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    That is only the opposite side if you make the huge assumption that artificially vibrating your mandolin for some period of time enhances vibrations. There is no science behind that assumption
    Would we need a scientific test to prove that suppressing the mandos vibrations would make it less resonant, have less sustain, have less tone? I think thats something we could all agree on.. i dont know anyone who says theyd rather lay their hand on the mando top to make it sound better.

    So obviously, why a mando sounds good has something to do with how it vibrates as a whole. Thats not the entire formula for good tone, but its part of it.

    Any method which may enhance its ability to vibrate as a whole, Im open to. Some of the best mandos Ive played almost sing by themselves when theres a draft. They just want to make noise.

    In my anecdotal evidence of using an orbital sander while the mando in is the white, the sander doesn't change the stiffness of the plates. So theres something else going on because the effect doesnt last more than a few hours. Id like a scientific answer bit I know that wont happen any time soon.

  19. #40
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ostrander View Post
    If you sit around and squeeze your mandolin for hours at a time, it may not sound better, but you'll get stronger hands.

    I don't know about you guys, but I hardly have time to practice, much less sit around and squeeze my mandolin.
    And the juice goes everywhere and is hard to get out.

  20. #41
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Would we need a scientific test to prove that suppressing the mandos vibrations would make it less resonant, have less sustain, have less tone? I think thats something we could all agree on.. i dont know anyone who says theyd rather lay their hand on the mando top to make it sound better.

    So obviously, why a mando sounds good has something to do with how it vibrates as a whole. Thats not the entire formula for good tone, but its part of it.

    Any method which may enhance its ability to vibrate as a whole, Im open to. Some of the best mandos Ive played almost sing by themselves when theres a draft. They just want to make noise.

    In my anecdotal evidence of using an orbital sander while the mando in is the white, the sander doesn't change the stiffness of the plates. So theres something else going on because the effect doesnt last more than a few hours. Id like a scientific answer bit I know that wont happen any time soon.
    My guess something that is happening is friction. You’ve warmed up the back of the mandolin - maybe softened the lacquer a little and it’s just a bit more resonant. You put it down. It cools and goes back to normal. But that’s a guess

  21. #42

    Default Re: Mando Massage

    an if all else fails, you can always tap dance on top of it & buy a new one.

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  23. #43
    Registered Muser dang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    It is funny how offen this topic comes up and how many times we argue the same points. Not the massaging, but the opening up part...
    Check out this thread from 2014:
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...nd-breaking-in

    I tend to think something does go on, but what that is remains unclear, and therefore difficult to test scientifically.

    I did go off and research it a bit one day, to quote myself from that thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by dang View Post
    I have a MS in Plant Biochemistry, and this topic often comes up but I stay away from scientific explanations.

    In the Ervin Somogyi link you supplied above he is appropriately vague in saying "In the guitar, also, different woods take different amounts of time for getting "played in". Why this is so is not fully known but, obviously, it has to do with changes in the cellular and fibrous structures of the woods over time."

    Not sure I buy the "Thy say it rearranges the sap within he wood overtime" argument. But drying and exposure to temperature and climate could certainly be involved.

    Scientific Mumbojumbo:
    Wood is primarily cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin (they total about 98% of what wood is). Cellulose tends to form crystalline structures that are highly polymerized (and very resistant to water and chemicals), but can present in many partially crystalline fibers and other structures. Hemicellulose has many less cross links (less polymerized), are generally less structured and are found at a higher percentage of total mass in soft woods. Both cellulose and hemicellulose interact (covalently cross link) with Lignin and it is this interaction which determines the majority of the physical properties of wood.

    Since the cellulose is sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity (not much humidity effect on lignin) then these effects can be seen in each of the cellulose structures at different amounts: crystalline (a little), semi-crystalline (more) and amorphous (much more). It is not too much of a stretch to therefore say that the level of humidity in the wood and the temperature of that wood can effect the way these macromolecular structures interact and therefore the physical properties of the wood.

    You could therefore make an argument that if you take an instrument out of it's case and play it, while it warms up to room temperature (or even warmer against your body) there IS a change in the physical properties of the wood which leads to acoustic changes. --This is my best attempt to account for an instrument "waking up" (in Bertram's terms (see post 78)).

    If you want to stretch this explanation a bit and try to explain "opening up" the best I can suggest is that more time in the "woken up" state results in a long term "opening up" due to a rearrangement of the fibrous strands, rearrangement of the crystalline and semi-crystalline sub structures, and a long term adaption to the physical strains on the wood due to the string tension and vibrations...

    Or it is just your ears adapting
    I should be pickin' rather than postin'

  24. #44
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    No, that won't work because you've got a human being in the middle with all the un-repeatable and chaotic elements that implies. Here's what I've suggested in the past, which is objective and repeatable:

    First, forget all the subjective elements like an "open tone" or any other qualitative judgement about tone. The one claim that almost always accompanies claims about improvement with artificial vibration is that it increases volume. Volume is something we can measure, and there actually have been scientific studies showing humans associate higher volume with "better sound quality." So let's test that.

    Make a jig to hold a mandolin in a fixed position, and make a pendulum gadget to stroke a pick across the strings. Tune the mandolin to an open chord if you like, to better simulate actual playing conditions. A pendulum will always make a repeatable stroke if you start it from the same position. Set up a microphone at a fixed distance, and record the sound of the pick/pendulum stroking the strings.

    Now use whatever voodoo method you like... attached vibrators, placing it in front of loud speakers, etc. Then put it back in the jig, make another recording with the pendulum/pick, and throw that wave file into the audio editor of your choice. Compare with the original waveform. If there is a volume increase, it will be right there, plain as day! Digital audio workstations are really good at showing volume levels.

    To establish this as a general principle, repeat the test with a bunch of different mandolins. If it works on all of them, maybe you're on to something. Publish the method so others can recreate and verify it. Anything else is just subjective impression and blowing smoke.
    The human(s) "in the middle" testing (playing) the both baseline and enhanced mandolins are the same ones so no control is need there. One only has to assume that every tester will not have a bad day on the same test? That seems reasonable?

    I have no complaints about your idea of a some kind of mechanical device to strum the instrument but what you suggest seems to cause more problems then it fixes:
    1) it would make doing any such test even more impossible to do -- I assume this device does not exist now and would have to be built?
    and 2) isn't it really unrealistic to think you could actually judge a mandolin in any meaningful way by the sound of hitting the strings on one chord?

    Just saying. I think your suggestion might be an example of where perfect becomes the enemy of the good?
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  25. #45
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    The human(s) "in the middle" testing (playing) the both baseline and enhanced mandolins are the same ones so no control is need there. One only has to assume that every tester will not have a bad day on the same test? That seems reasonable?
    Too many uncontrolled variables when you have someone actually playing the instrument. You need a way to test the instrument in exactly the same way before and after the supposed enhancement.

    I have no complaints about your idea of a some kind of mechanical device to strum the instrument but what you suggest seems to cause more problems then it fixes:
    1) it would make doing any such test even more impossible to do -- I assume this device does not exist now and would have to be built?
    Wooden jigs to hold instruments are used all the time in luthiery and instrument repair. It would take any competent woodworker a very short time to make a wooden pendulum. A base, a vertical upright, a swinging arm on an axle. It's a very simple device.

    and 2) isn't it really unrealistic to think you could actually judge a mandolin in any meaningful way by the sound of hitting the strings on one chord?
    I'm suggesting that it's possible to isolate the one thing that we can test objectively, which is an increase in volume. Everything else about "better tone" is subjective and much more difficult to test without rooms full of people in double-blind testing. And even then, we all have different ideas about what a good mandolin should sound like. What I want as an Irish/Scottish trad player for "tone" is likely to be different from what a Bluegrass player wants.

    A change in volume from the vibrated instrument is in a different category. It's something an Irish and Bluegrass player both would like, and it's one of the things often claimed for artificial vibration/flexing methods, using terms like "better projection" or a "more open" sound. To the extent that this is a result of a minor increase in volume, it's something that could be demonstrated (or disproved) with a simple test like this.

    Here's another way to think about it. If an artificial enhancement method didn't increase volume at all, and only changed something about the tone, are you sure that's something you'd want? How do you know it would be an improvement, and not just "different"? This is why I think most people are looking for a volume increase along with whatever else they're expecting from artificial methods. And it could be demonstrated, if it's actually there at all.

  26. #46
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I have no complaints about your idea of a some kind of mechanical device to strum the instrument but what you suggest seems to cause more problems then it fixes:
    1) it would make doing any such test even more impossible to do -- I assume this device does not exist now and would have to be built?
    That is the curse of science - it is expensive to build absolute proof, and after you made the effort people will discard your proof and return to believing what they want to believe (my signature line is based on experience). You really learn to let go - it's the most useful skill to acquire in the process.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  27. #47
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    My guess something that is happening is friction. You’ve warmed up the back of the mandolin - maybe softened the lacquer a little and it’s just a bit more resonant. You put it down. It cools and goes back to normal. But that’s a guess
    Thats a good guess and I've thought of that as well. Lacquer isnt a variable here since I do this while the mandolins are in the white, with strings tuned to pitch. I've outlined what is happening earlier in this thread.

    The warming of the plate is a possibility, but then we should be able to reproduce this by warming up the plate.

  28. #48
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    That is the curse of science - it is expensive to build absolute proof, and after you made the effort people will discard your proof and return to believing what they want to believe (my signature line is based on experience). You really learn to let go - it's the most useful skill to acquire in the process.
    Yes I think of these ideas and many other similar subjective things about mandolin tone enhancement to be every bit a real as astrology!

    But we should never forget it is science that allows us to have cell phones, lab top computers, cures for diseases, discuss mandolins on this forum, the possibility of life on other planets, long life spans, and uncountable other benefits. No other field of study including the arts have given mankind such real life-giving, and life extending realities.
    Bernie
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  30. #49

    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Yes,a veritable cornucopia of variables;some known some unknown,or at least arguable.

    Really great to hear of the interest in the subject from a multi-faceted group.

    Doubling down on my fretboard extension comment. Pure affectation.

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    Default Re: Mando Massage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    ... Science is objective and repeatable. ...
    I agree with this to an extent. Scientific results are only consistent while there is a consistent way of testing them and of measuring the results. The reason that the tone characteristics of musical instruments cannot be scientifically tested is that the woods and other materials involved are never exactly the same from one instrument to the next. And even if they were, there are still too many setup variables involved.

    That's not to say that no scientific test works on a mandolin. For example, if you apply a sufficient amount of pressure to the top and back of a mandolin, it will flatten. However the specific amount of pressure required to flatten a mandolin will differ from one mandolin to the next.

    The problem we all face as we seek better sounding instruments, and for that matter music in general, is that the sound we hear is always filtered by our emotions about it. No scientific test has ever been able to completely get around that.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
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