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Thread: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

  1. #1

    Default Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    The Strad-O-Lin mandolin shown here belonged to my wife’s late grandfather. In pulling it out of a closet to clean it for my FIN (after 25 years), I noticed the poor/damaged varnish or resin that was applied (on the back as shown below).

    Normally, you never touch the finish on a vintage instrument (especially violins). Removing varnish (or patinas) from antiques im general or stringed instruments is a huge mistake (as anyone will learn from one episode of Antiques Roadshow.

    This said, the finish on this instrument was so poorly applied that I really want to strip it. In fact, I do not see any alternative. First, is stripping the finish a mistake, even given the horribly applied varnish (it might even be resin)?

    If not, with my substantial experience with stains, varnishes, and other wood finishing (from years of working on wooden boats), I would be very comfortable stripping the body to bare wood. As such, what finish would be recommended to restore this mandolin? I.E., what finish(es) is most appropriate or historically accurate? Thank you in advance for advice and recommendations.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    That is not an original finish, but someone's hack job. Do what you want with it. You might be able to sand it flat and finish over it. It's never going to be all that valuable, so no worries there.
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  4. #3
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Most American fretted instruments from that time period were finished with nitrocellulose lacquer, though I suppose that other things might also have been used. Remember that the modern poly finishes and catalyzed varnishes had not yet been developed when your mandolin was made.

    Some people use chemical strippers, but I usually avoid them. If a job like this came to me, I would probably strip it by hand, starting with 220 grit on a hardware store rubber sanding block. I would then follow with 320 and get as much of the old finish off as possible without thinning the wood significantly. Most of the time, I avoid solvents-- sometimes they just drive the old finish deeper into the wood.

    I would then follow with nitro, or perhaps Pratt and Lambert "38 varnish." The Pratt and Lambert stuff is supposedly an old fashioned alkyd based varnish that is somewhat similar to pre-war production varnishes.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    I'm pretty sure that one was stripped down already before they put that finish on it. I'm also not sure that's varnish. Being historically accurate isn't that big of a deal here honestly. From your other thread it has already had some modifications that kind of keep it from being original. You can probably produce a decent player grade instrument but these aren't horribly valuable to begin with.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    As the others have said, if the finish is trashed anyway, there's no loss in refinishing.

    I would start with a lot coarser grit than 240 - otherwise you're going to be a very long time if that's as thick as the photos suggest - something more like 120 should shift it. Even then it can be tough work. Use a random orbit sander on the big surfaces (back etc) if you can, and do it outside and with a mask as well in case the finish is something nasty.

    Should make a nice player though - have fun!

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    I'd look on line for a suitable wood scraper & use that to remove the bulk of the varnish. I think that 'maybe',unless the varnish is really hard,that it would clog any form of abrasive paper. https://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/cabinet-scraper After removing most of the varnish,use an assortment of suitable sandpapers,finishing with a really fine grade one.

    As for re-finish - that's possibly your own choice ?. Despite it being an inexpensive instrument 'comparatively',it still deserves to be made as good as it can be,& the result might be surprisingly good. Maybe when you've stripped & sanded the finish,string it up to see how it sounds 'undressed' - then take it from there ?.

    That's just the sort of instrument that i could take a lot of time to experiment on with 'strings 'n things', to see just how well i could get it to sound,
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Due to the texture in the second picture, it almost looks like the finish reacted to contact with something over a period of time (maybe a case lining, music stand, couch cushion, etc.). That could give a clue as to what its composition is, and how it might most easily be removed.

    I can't tell for sure from the pictures, but it seems that most of it was at least applied evenly -- if overly thick and without any kind of final smoothing/buffing.

    I can't believe that somebody who took the time to refinish a mandolin would botch it like that and not fix it during the application process, but I've been surprised before! Good luck!

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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    If it was finished with lacquer and it was laying on vinyl it will produce a reaction like that.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    You know, although it’s badly applied, it might look a lot better if it was level sanded, thinned, and rubbed out. That might be preferable to stripping. It would be good if you could determine exactly what is on there. Find an inconspicuous area and put a tiny drop of acetone on it. If it’s lacquer, it will dissolve. If it’s shellac or varnish, it will get tacky. And if it’s urethane or poly it will just bead up. To tell shellac from varnish, switch to denatured alcohol. Shellac will soften immediately, varnish will soften more slowly. Personally, if it turned out to be polyor urethane, I might want to strip it, but if it’s indeed real varnish, shellac, or lacquer, I might be just as happy leaving it on but working on thinning/leveling/smoothing/rubbing out. That’s what should have been done here in the first place. People think you can finish by just slopping it on. They just don’t know any better. That’s only the beginning of the process. I have a mountain dulcimer I acquired that is very nice instrument except that the maker, who otherwise seems to know his work, applied his finish too thick, so it had thick spots and run marks. I did what he should have done, spending a couple of hours with various grades of sandpaper, micro mesh, and steel wool. The finish is much thinner now, so sound has improved, it is level and attractive, and the gloss level has been toned down to a much more subtle level. All in all it was a great improvement.
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  18. #10

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Thank you...I didn’t think it was the original finish.

  19. #11

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Awesome response! Thanks! I did not know those tricks and will definitely try this first.

  20. #12

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Thanks! BTW, do you think the body is Birch? I think the neck is Pine, but guessing on the body. Also, the pegs are not original apparently. Can you recommend a shop online that sells repros?

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by lasherdc View Post
    Thanks! BTW, do you think the body is Birch? I think the neck is Pine, but guessing on the body. Also, the pegs are not original apparently. Can you recommend a shop online that sells repros?
    I would guess maple, but perhaps some of the wood experts can chime in.

    As for the tuners: unless they don't work properly I would keep what is on it. As others have noted on this and the other thread, this is a budget instrument and in its current refinished state is not worth all that much. I would not worry too much about repro parts. Make it playable and play it. They are some of the nicer old budget mandolins. Yours may even be solid wood.

    BTW what is a FIN?
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    The back looks like maple to me.

    The original tuners on my Strad had to go. They were poorly designed budget model tuners which ceased to function. It would not have been practical to repair them. If your tuners work well, I would leave them alone. If you do replace them, check the string post spacing-- many of the older mandolins had 15/16" post spacing. Most tuners being made today have 29/32" spacing, and will not fit properly in a mandolin that has the holes drilled on the wider centers.

    A cabinet scraper is indeed a good tool for removing finish if you know how to sharpen and use it. There is a definite learning curve to using and sharpening scrapers, though.

    If you start with sandpaper any coarser than 220 and go all the way through the finish with it, it will be impossible to remove the sanding scratches without thinning the plate too much. I might risk 180 for the first pass or two, but that is the absolute lowest that I would go. Some of the extra high grade sandpapers are much less prone to clogging and are worth the extra money for this sort of job.

    Avoid short cuts when working on vintage instruments.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jun-12-2018 at 11:28pm.

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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    It's possible that the new finish was applied over the original finish & that they reacted badly with one another. Many years ago,a friend of mine bought a Ford 'Thunderbird' over here.The finish was let's say - 'poor'. He decided to re-spray it. He rubbed it down to flat it off,& applied an undercoat - of the wrong sort of paint !!. The result was horrific. The undercoat reacted with the original paint & the whole finish crinkled up. He eventually stripped the car down to almost bare metal,used the correct type of paint & did make a superb job of it in the end = it's wise to check out the type of original finish that you're going to apply any other finish to - or else !.

    Re. the tuners - i'd maybe go for some new tuners that will actually work very well,all the time. Gotoh make a 'Stealth' model of tuner,made as individual items ie. ,not on a backing plate. They're small & they work very well indeed. It might seem a tad OTT to spend money on a more expensive tuner for a Strad-O-Lin,but even on such an instrument,i'd want tuners that above all, 'work consistently well',
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  26. #16

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    ... Many years ago,a friend of mine bought a Ford 'Thunderbird' over here.The finish was let's say - 'poor'. He decided to re-spray it. He rubbed it down to flat it off,& applied an undercoat - of the wrong sort of paint !!. The result was horrific. The undercoat reacted with the original paint & the whole finish crinkled up. ...
    Nowadays maybe he could have called it a "rat rod" and let people think it was intentional, pretty much "anything goes" with those. Probably one of the tamer things that people do, is to just put clear-coat over rust. Rat rods do have a certain 'entertainment' value, in addition to their main draw of being a far more affordable way to drive something old. There are a couple of examples of other people's rat rods in our cruise video from last year, for instance from 0:48 to 0:58.

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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    Nowadays maybe he could have called it a "rat rod" and let people think it was intentional, pretty much "anything goes" with those. Probably one of the tamer things that people do, is to just put clear-coat over rust. Rat rods do have a certain 'entertainment' value, in addition to their main draw of being a far more affordable way to drive something old. There are a couple of examples of other people's rat rods in our cruise video from last year, for instance from 0:48 to 0:58.
    I have a nephew that lives in California that built a beautiful 32 Ford roadster hot rod and had it painted gray primer with a flat finish. I don't get it
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  28. #18

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Haha...sorry about that...typing in small screen. FIN= Father-in-Law. This instrument was my wife’s grandfather’s mandolin...my Father-in-Law’s dad.

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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I have a nephew that lives in California that built a beautiful 32 Ford roadster hot rod and had it painted gray primer with a flat finish. I don't get it
    He likes it that way . . .

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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    He does, it just runs contrary to what I grew up with.
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    He likes it that way . . .
    I used to have a 70 Mustang that was gray primer painted when I got (a project car) and was gray primer when I sold it, lol! I would have liked to have completed it but you know how that goes.
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Ummm, will this thread start discussing mandolins again any time soon? Just sayin'.
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  34. #23

    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    Ummm, will this thread start discussing mandolins again any time soon? Just sayin'.
    I appreciate the sentiment, especially if it detours into a subject I'm not interested in. In this case, I like talking about how car "restoration" trends somewhat follow trends in vintage instrument restoration. That is to say, it wasn't that long ago that a repainted automobile would be LAUGHED out of a car show or auction -- it was considered by collectors to be completely useless, except as a daily driver. THE SAME held for vintage instruments -- it had to have the original finish or its value was about 1/10 of what an original one might bring. SAME with a car having rust repair or body work due to a collision -- collectors simply were not interested in such a vehicle. I grew up with Dad taking me to car shows and seeing original 30's cars with original finishes. Needless to say, times have changed a lot, as far as what we consider acceptable. I will say the skill level of refinishers has greatly improved over the years -- AGAIN, not that long ago, a refinished instrument could be spotted from across the room -- now, an well restored instrument can fool a team of experts.

    FWIW, none of this applies to a Stradolin, but like Multidon suggests, the thick refinish can probably be improved by carefully thinning it down. That's what I would try first, before refinishing. I should add that there is a certain mindset of people who "like to refinish" that borders on obsession, IMHO. Sure, it is fun, but unless you can do professional quality INSTRUMENT work, I would avoid a refinish. Many instruments have be ruined or further ruined by Homer Formby type do-it-yourselfers, IMHO. FWIW, the finish doesn't really bother me on this instrument. On an expensive instrument I might feel differently. YMMV.

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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Jeff - I've tried many times in the past to remove 'wrinkles' in ordinary household painted items prior to re-painting. More often than not,the wrinkles go 'down to the bone' anyway. The thicker areas,don't suddenly disappear,leaving an even surface. It can be tried of course,but personally,i wouldn't hope for too much - nevertheless,a good idea to try,
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    Default Re: Fixing HORRIBLY Applied Varnish

    Yes, mandolins! OTOH I seem to recall that Fender used car paints for their custom-colored instruments and I think that could even include the mandocaster.

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