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Thread: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

  1. #1
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    Default Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    So, I have a Weber Octave mandolin from 2014. I was going to change my strings as they're kind of old, now, but I also have a buzz when I play.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsNtah1kzvk

    I asked Gryphon Strings about this and the guy things I may have the action too low for "how I play."

    Is this just playing badly? I don't play my octave nearly as much as my regular mandolin, but is this just me sucking? Or is it acceptable and I should just adjust it?

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    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Why don't you have the Gryphon Guy do a set-up for you?

    Steve
    Steve Sorensen
    Sorensen Mandolin & Guitar Co.
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    I'm going to. I just don't want to go down there and do one if I'm just playing too hard or wrong on the instrument. (><) Trying to avoid embarrassment.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    What's the scale length on that Weber, is it the shorter 20" or longer 22" version? And what gauge strings do you have on it now (if you know)?

    There is no "standard" gauge string set on octave mandolins because they can vary in scale length, and degree of "oomph" needed to drive the top with different construction. Many of us OM enthusiasts use custom gauges to get just the right tension on a given instrument.

    For example, I have a Weber 22" scale OM and I use the D'Addario J80 phosphor bronze set, but I substitute one gauge higher on the E strings because the "standard" set is a bit wimpy up there. And I should probably try a slightly heavier G pair too, I've just never gotten around to it.

    Getting a pro setup is always a great idea, but any luthier doing a setup will want to know what strings you're using, and do the setup for that set of gauges. So you might want to do a little experimentation with different string gauges first.

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    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Love the tee shirt. Throwing the disc and playing the mandolin is my retirement plan.
    Mike Snyder

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  7. #6
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    What's the scale length on that Weber, is it the shorter 20" or longer 22" version? And what gauge strings do you have on it now (if you know)?

    There is no "standard" gauge string set on octave mandolins because they can vary in scale length, and degree of "oomph" needed to drive the top with different construction. Many of us OM enthusiasts use custom gauges to get just the right tension on a given instrument.

    For example, I have a Weber 22" scale OM and I use the D'Addario J80 phosphor bronze set, but I substitute one gauge higher on the E strings because the "standard" set is a bit wimpy up there. And I should probably try a slightly heavier G pair too, I've just never gotten around to it.

    Getting a pro setup is always a great idea, but any luthier doing a setup will want to know what strings you're using, and do the setup for that set of gauges. So you might want to do a little experimentation with different string gauges first.
    Hmm, OK. Well that makes me feel a little less sheepish about heading down there.

    It's a 22" OM (which, honestly, I wish I'd gone 20" because it's a bit much for my pathetic noodle fingers) and I was about to replace the strings with d'addario EJ80 medium loop end phosphor bronze because that's what the shop recommended I use. What's on there now, I actually don't remember, I haven't changed the strings in a long while.

  8. #7
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Dan, your vid shows a fairly "heavy hand" in your playing approach, and you might well end up with a higher action than some of us players who are wimpier, or should I say "more subtle and tasteful," in our picking.

    I used to work part-time in an instrument shop that displayed the sign, "All customers who want their action adjusted as low as possible without buzzing, should immediately leave the shop," or words to that effect. I don't hear "buzzing," as in "strings set so low that they rattle on the next higher fret," but picking strenuously will eventually result in strings vibrating through a large enough arc to impact further up the neck.

    Just my 2¢.
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Dan, your vid shows a fairly "heavy hand" in your playing approach, and you might well end up with a higher action than some of us players who are wimpier, or should I say "more subtle and tasteful," in our picking.

    I used to work part-time in an instrument shop that displayed the sign, "All customers who want their action adjusted as low as possible without buzzing, should immediately leave the shop," or words to that effect. I don't hear "buzzing," as in "strings set so low that they rattle on the next higher fret," but picking strenuously will eventually result in strings vibrating through a large enough arc to impact further up the neck.

    Just my 2¢.
    Well, to be fair I was playing a bit harder than I normally would so that the mic would pick up the buzz, but even when just strumming at a reasonable volume, the buzz persists.

    My daughter actually got sick so I wasn't able to go to Gryphon this weekend, but I'm going to try to replace the strings my self and see if newer strings have the same problem. If it persists after that I think I'll bring it in.

  11. #9
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    A bit larger gauge might help.
    You might check out the octave sets from emando to see how they compare.
    http://emando.com/shop/strings_zouk.htm
    He recommends 46-34-24-13 for a 22"

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  13. #10
    Dave Sheets
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Just as a quick comment, there is a technique called palm muting that I tend to use when playing hard on a guitar or octave mandolin- it helps to control the unwanted string rattle at times, when you are hitting the instrument hard. As Allen mentions above, this sounds like the strings hitting the frets well above the fretting point. This happens when I really hit a fretted instrument hard, palm muting offers a bit of control of this problem. I found this youtube video showing this on guitar, if you aren't familiar with this method, you might find it a useful method at times, though you may still want to check the setup.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ZOPqcjK8c

    Best of luck
    Last edited by Dave Sheets; Jun-11-2018 at 1:32pm. Reason: mispelling, dang.
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  15. #11

    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    David Surette gave me some good advice on octave playing, use a thinner pick.
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    Registered User Roger Adams's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Why not just raise the bridge height a bit when you make the string change?
    If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a vet.

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  18. #13
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    In the video, you seem to be playing mainly downstrokes, not alternating up and down. Your pickstroke is very long, coming from the entire forearm, and not the wrist, and it has a whole lot of "transverse motion" in it (that is, motion perpendicular to the face of the instrument, starting near it, and moving away from it), rather than being confined to a smaller, up-and-down motion strictly in the plane of the strings. This is considered to be poor technique by many/most instructors. The excessive transverse motion of your pickstroke (like 'slapping' doghouse bass) tends to set the strings vibrating in the plane perpendicular to the fretboard, causing them to hit it. It therefore leads to lots of buzzing.

    Of course, you can certainly try adjusting the action at the bridge, try out different gauges of strings (higher tension), and several other mechanical adjustments to reduce the buzzing. But you also should consider how your heavy, transverse pickstroke might be producing some of the buzzing that you hear. When you played a scale in your video, with alternate picking and smaller pickstrokes, I didn't hear any buzzing. That is a clue!

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    Registered User WELSrev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    The excessive transverse motion of your pickstroke (like 'slapping' doghouse bass) tends to set the strings vibrating in the plane perpendicular to the fretboard, causing them to hit it. It therefore leads to lots of buzzing.
    That was my first thought when I saw that video also. Pulling that string away from the fretboard is really going to make life interesting when it is released.

    I put the bass down one evening and the fiddler that grabbed it pulled the string out so far that when he let it go the resulting thwack raised dust from the bass and my feet off the floor.

  20. #15
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    You can't go wrong letting a good setup person look over your instrument. Looking at how you play and adjusting the instrument to your "technique" is part of a good setup. That needs to be done in person to see all the different ways you play it. What I see in the video is that in one short section you actually play the instrument and there is no buzzing that I can hear. The rest of it is just banging on the strings. You can make any instrument buzz like that. You have access to a really fine shop with true experts. Take it over there and let them talk with you about it. If you decide to have setup work done, let them put your new strings on as part of that.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Action too high or am I just playing badly?

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

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