My latest crazy idea - the "Faux Mandola!"

[ukenukem]

This may have been done before but I cannot find many references to it on the Net. I'm curious if anyone else has tried downtuning a mandolin to DAEB.

I recently purchased the classic mandolin test-bed, the Rogue 100A (in black) and after doing the setup thought about down tuning it to take advantage of its larger body. I tried this with the only extra stings I had, D'Addario PB 10's, tuned it to DAEB and . . . it works better than it should!

Open strings still sound kindof cheap-plywood-overtone-rich but fretted notes sound very nice. I put some rubber grommets between the bridge and tailpiece which helped. The intonation worked out fine. I was wondering of the bridge compensation would be off but it does not seem to be.

Of course the tension is loose but I want to try the new Martin Monels which I hope will lower the overtones and raise the tension. I do play 10's on my regularly tuned mandolin so I think the Monel 11's will work for me. But of course, strings are cheap.

However, there is the problem of the tuners! I adjusted/lubricated them to be usable but yikes these instruments really put you in the "luck of the draw!" In this case the tuners were not bad enough to send it back and so far, it is staying in tune quite well.

Bob

[MikeEdgerton]

There are some threads discussing this. Here is one.

[sblock]

I don'y quite see how this is a "faux mandola," since the tuning is neither that of a mandolin nor a mandola. It's down by a fourth, not a fifth, and a whole step above the mandola. Taking a set of standard light-medium mando strings that low makes them all loose and wonky, and they don't hold tuning well, as you're already finding out! It's not the fault of your tuners, nor the fault of your strings, however: the string tension is simply too low in that configuration (down to around just 8 lbs; it should be closer to 20 lbs). This is just asking for trouble.

Unfortunately, it is not really feasible to develop a usable instrument that's tuned to the mandola notes of CGDA without increasing the scale length from ~14" to something closer to ~16". You can also increase the string diameters, of course, but doing so introduces its own set of additional issues, and imposes additional constraints. This is the reason, of course, that lower-tuned instruments have longer fretboards. If we could get a practical mandola sound from a 14" scale length, which is easier on the hand stretches (!), this instrument would exist and be rather popular. Alas, no such instrument is available. Its strings would have to be made of out of "unobtainium."

[ukenukem]

Mike - I did see that thread and several others about lower tunings. I first tried the E blues tuning but I did like the resulting tone.

sblock - Yes I understand all of that, been working on fretted instruments for decades. My description was to let everyone know I understand the physics and that it would be an ongoing experiment. The tuners on Rogue mandolins are known to be quite iffy in quality. I can tell the difference between tuners with physical issues and normal tuners using thinner strings. The overall point was this experiment is working much much better than it should.

The "Faux Mandola" title was referring to the stretch of getting a mandola tone from a mandolin, and, I do appreciate the comments. I find that part of the fun of being a hobby musician is getting cheap instruments to sound way better than they should. You might find other aspects of music to your liking. There is plenty of fun to go around.

Bob

[Tomando]

Mike - I did see that thread and several others about lower tunings. I first tried the E blues tuning but I did like the resulting tone.

sblock - Yes I understand all of that, been working on fretted instruments for decades. My description was to let everyone know I understand the physics and that it would be an ongoing experiment. The tuners on Rogue mandolins are known to be quite iffy in quality. I can tell the difference between tuners with physical issues and normal tuners using thinner strings. The overall point was this experiment is working much much better than it should.

The "Faux Mandola" title was referring to the stretch of getting a mandola tone from a mandolin, and, I do appreciate the comments. I find that part of the fun of being a hobby musician is getting cheap instruments to sound way better than they should. You might find other aspects of music to your liking. There is plenty of fun to go around.

Bob

If that thing doesn’t want to co-operate, you could always set fire to it onstage..

[MikeEdgerton]

If that thing doesn’t want to co-operate, you could always set fire to it onstage..

Right on Dude!

[ukenukem]

If that thing doesn’t want to co-operate, you could always set fire to it onstage..

[Jess L.]

... I find that part of the fun of being a hobby musician is getting cheap instruments to sound way better than they should. ...

Yup! I agree with you 100-percent on that.

[ukenukem]

UPDATE - (for the few interested)

I put on a set of Martin Monels 11-40 and they are an improvement but they are not as stiff as I hoped. Much better tone for sure. Last night I re-set the bridge because I noticed it was leaning towards the neck slightly causing the foot to lift on the other side. That turned out to be from narrow slots for the lowest pair. So after a wee touch up I got it to sit flat.

I will still keep eyes peeled for a set of monel (or perhaps nickel) 12's but it is proving to be a pleasant instrument to play. I can practice as if I were playing a normal tuned mandolin or I can transpose and work up material in the actual key.

The Rogue has a nice resonance in this lower range and the monel strings have less overtones. Certainly very usable in the beater/travel role.

[Tom Wright]

...If we could get a practical mandola sound from a 14" scale length, which is easier on the hand stretches (!), this instrument would exist and be rather popular. Alas, no such instrument is available...

Well there are a bunch of electric 5-strings at mandolin scale that sound good. My 14.25" 10-string is a great instrument, very popular in the folk dance world for contra and English Country Dance (I'm having a pretty busy summer playing dances). Given that three of the four courses of a mandola are the same pitch as a mandolin, obviously those courses don't need a longer scale. Consider the 7-string guitars favored in Brazil for choro. They just add a string, as did George Van Epps and John Pizzarelli in jazz. Bass players add a low string without making the instrument unplayable.

Johnny Gimble like stringing his Gibson acoustic-electric CGDA, and Aaron Weinstein posted a nice video of some chord-melody with a Gimble-tuned regular F-style mando.

What is best is a larger body for appropriate resonant strength, so Buchanan increases the volume of the body by about 50% over his regular mandolins. Longer string length is less important than playable, and one doesn't need to use outlandish gauges. I use .048 for the C pair on both electric and acoustic.

I think 10-strings should be popular---I'm getting gigs, playing in a jazz quartet (sax, emando, bass, drums) tonight. It is so much more useful than only GDAE tuning that I sold my only mandolin once I found good 10-string instruments.

[Tom Wright]

For mandola tuning at mandolin scale you should just use your normal GDA gauges, like .038, .024, .016. Then for the same tension go up by 50%, so about .054 for the C. But that's kind of thick for the nut slots so try .050 for the C pair.

If you stick with DAEB choose .014, .022, .034, and .048. Don;t feel constrained by sets, buy some singles and try different gauges.

[ukenukem]

Thanks Tom, I understand the option of individual strings and have done that before but found it complicates ordering and raises the cost. Starting with "off the shelf" choices I can get w/o shipping charges. The Rogue does not have a truss rod so I may just save up for a better A style that can adjust to thicker strings.

I started learning mandolin to give our Americana band some options and it is beginning to pan out. Learning tunes for public performance certainly puts some pressure on me to learn it faster!

Bob

[billhay4]

Fanned frets.
Bill

[Hypoxia]

The Rogue's parallel is the 'uke world is the Dolphin taropatch 8-string 17-inch tenor, US$100 shipped. Get two sets of Aquila 31U fifths strings and tune down a 5th. Instant mandola or mand'uke, and less hand stretch than a 19-inch mandola or something longer.