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Thread: Italian music, getting started

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Stetson View Post
    I also play Italian style, but haven't yet chimed in because everyone else said it already, but do let us know how you make out at Ikegaku. I also play traditional Japanese music (shakuhachi, shinobue, a little shamisen), but my Shakuhachi sensei's first instrument was mandolin. He's way up in Sapporo, though! Have fun!
    Three 50 minute lessons per month cost 12,960 yen at Ikegaku. I'm between jobs at the moment, so that's a bit prohibitive. Are you in Tokyo too? I'm in Nerima, about 10 minutes west of Ikebukuro.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    No, not Tokyo, Western Massachusetts, USA. I visited Sapporo in 1993, but haven't been back since. I'd be interested to talk, though, I'll send a message.

  3. #28
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Tom....saluti a te for wanting to dive into the Italian music slipstream of mandolin music. Please, don't overthink it or worry to much about how "correct" your method or tremolo or choice of mandolins are. Learn to love the melodies, the harmonies and lovely ambience of this incredible alive tradition of music.
    The many folks' advice here can be maternal or paternalistic, however well intentioned. The beautiful melodies are alive and vital. They will be the key to opening your mandolin journey. Your "Italian" or "Olive Garden" technique will come to life in it's own time and own manner. The melodies are eternal.

    Mick
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  5. #29
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Please, don't overthink it or worry to much about how "correct" your method or tremolo or choice of mandolins are. Learn to love the melodies, the harmonies and lovely ambience of this incredible alive tradition of music.
    The many folks' advice here can be maternal or paternalistic, however well intentioned.
    I totally agree that the music is wonderful and it is more important to just get into playing and listening to Italian music.

    However once one is comfortable with the music, then it is time to really learn to sound Italian.

    Would you advise a beginner Bluegrass, Choro, Old Time or Irish mandolinist to not worry about sounding "correct"?

    "The melodies are eternal."

    That is very true; however if not played true to style, then something very important and essential is lost, shall we say, in translation.

    My extremely "paternalistic, however well intentioned" advice - and I'm stubbornly, Sicilianly, sticking to it

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  7. #30
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Would you advise a beginner Bluegrass, Choro, Old Time or Irish mandolinist to not worry about sounding "correct"?
    While I do agree with you in general to achieve the nuances of a particular genre, there are some shade of meaning here. For instance, since you mention old time, there are many regional variants to that genre. Getting down to a granular level, it is likely that an old time fiddler from Kentucky might not appreciate a different bowing style of someone from Missouri or Texas or Virginia.

    As for Italian mandolin music, I would wager that a player from Sicily would not play mandolin in the same style as someone from Genoa or Rome. There are some universal style aspects in playing a genre however there may not be one absolutely correct way even, possibly the way that a player in Italy executes tremolo.
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  9. #31
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    While I do agree with you in general to achieve the nuances of a particular genre, there are some shade of meaning here. For instance, since you mention old time, there are many regional variants to that genre. Getting down to a granular level, it is likely that an old time fiddler from Kentucky might not appreciate a different bowing style of someone from Missouri or Texas or Virginia.

    As for Italian mandolin music, I would wager that a player from Sicily would not play mandolin in the same style as someone from Genoa or Rome. There are some universal style aspects in playing a genre however there may not be one absolutely correct way even, possibly the way that a player in Italy executes tremolo.
    Exactly!

    But there are some overall stylistic generalizations one can make about all genres of music.

    So before one even get into regional and personal styles within a genre, one has to deal with the overriding stylistic issues.

    "it is likely that an old time fiddler from Kentucky might not appreciate a different bowing style of someone from Missouri or Texas or Virginia"

    Just so - but they would all recognize each other as "American" and not Italian, Hungarian, or whatever else.

    So mandolinists from varying parts of Italy could identify local styles while still knowing all of them are some form of Italian music...and not American.

    Look, I am all for bands of any genre playing Italian tunes any way they like.

    Think of certain tunes that are played by Irish, Scottish, and American contra dance, Old time and Bluegrass bands.

    Same tune.

    What makes it the particular sub-genre? The way the tune is played.

    So I am in favor of playing Italian tunes in some form of Italian style. Fine.

    If you and your band want to play an Italian tune and go it any style possible, fine by me - but in terms of teaching the music, I'm very proud of the Italian and Sicilian ( and Greek) mandolin traditions and will push them over other styles.

    That said, in good humor, I leave you with the version of a tune by a Sicilian American home town boy from Hew Orleans:


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  11. #32
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    While we're at it....



    and for my Nonna




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  13. #33
    Joe B mandopops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    I call Louis Prima the Italian Louis Jordan.
    Joe B

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  15. #34

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    About Italian music :



    Mandolin player website:
    (He also give online Mandolin lessons)

    http://www.fabiogallucci.net/Homepage.html
    Last edited by Mandolin Cafe; Aug-07-2023 at 7:40am. Reason: helping with embedding videos

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  17. #35

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    About the pointy pick:

    Do they have to be "bendy", or can they be stiff? I have a good bunch of Dunlop "Max Grip Jazz III Carbon", used with E-guitar But smaller than most common E-guitar picks. They don't bend.
    A super cheap mandolin I'm not using, bought years go, came with a pick that was more almond shaped or even longer, and rather flexible.


  18. #36

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by canzonenapoletana View Post
    About the pointy pick:

    Do they have to be "bendy", or can they be stiff? I have a good bunch of Dunlop "Max Grip Jazz III Carbon", used with E-guitar But smaller than most common E-guitar picks. They don't bend.
    A super cheap mandolin I'm not using, bought years go, came with a pick that was more almond shaped or even longer, and rather flexible.
    Much is a matter of personal preference. I've tried many, tend to keep many on hand. My personal preference for modern (i.e., late 1800s and after) Neapolitan mandolins is Neapolitan-profile plectra (note attached image). That said, I tend to prefer mine to be relatively (but not completely) rigid, which is a function of thickness and material. I once bought an antique wholesale box full of the profile I like, but in ca. 0.5–0.6-mm celluloid that was so floppy as to be unusable for me. The antique box is now a decorative knickknack.

    I tend to prefer relatively thin (ca. 0.7–0.9-mm) plectra in antique tortoiseshell, but locating antique picks made of turtles is increasingly difficult. And in no way do I want to contribute to black-market poaching. I am thus weaning myself to not risk getting suckered into new material being sold as antique.

    I tend to prefer thicker (approx. 1.0 mm) in softer material like celluloid. However, while I like the slightly smoother-voiced result, I tend to wear celluloid out very quickly, and even it is getting difficult to find. Italian string maker Galli makes a 1.0-mm celluloid plectrum available that I quite like (to start).

    Modern, very hard plastics like polyetherimide (which goes by the trade name Ultem [or Ultex when sold by Dunlop]) can be thinner (0.8 mm) and certainly lasts much longer than old-fashioned celluloid, but not nearly as long as turtles. I can more easily be louder with thinner polyetherimide. I have bought Clayton large triangles in 0.8-mm polyetherimide as "raw material," cut them to shape, and buffed and beveled their edges. . . . But my time is valuable. More recently, I've simply commissioned Apollo Picks to make polyetherimide plectra for me.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I've only dabbled in casein (milk protein) from Red Bear Trading. Years ago, mandolinist Carlo Aonzo convinced them to produce a line in a traditional but very narrow Neapolitan profile. Enamored of advice coming from a world-class, famous player, they're reluctant to try the more common Neapolitan profile. I can't use the Red Bear plectra as they come; the very sharp point is too snaggy for me. To make them usable, I slightly grind the point down with a diamond hook hone and then smooth with cosmetic nail buffers.

    Left to right, antique tortoiseshell (approx. 0.8 mm), Galli celluloid (1.00 mm), Red Bear Trading casein (0.95 mm), Dogal (their heavy gauge: "3"; you'll note that they're considerably smaller than many of the historic Neapolitan plectra), heart-shaped Japanese celluloid imported by Pickboy (also small and too thin for my taste, guessing approx. 0.7 mm, but that little heart-shaped wedge does improve grip and limit rotation).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Eugene; Aug-07-2023 at 2:03pm.

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  20. #37

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMandolinWorld View Post
    [Fabio] also give online Mandolin lessons
    A good guy. A fine player.

  21. #38

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    I tend to prefer relatively thin (ca. 0.7–0.9-mm) plectra in antique tortoiseshell, but locating antique picks made of turtles is increasingly difficult. And in no way do
    Interesting.
    I guess I'll try these then:
    https://www.thomannmusic.com/v_picks...arly_gates.htm

    Which are of a material, where they, at least for the large version:
    https://www.thomannmusic.com/v_picks...tes_556672.htm

    that it: "Sounds similar to real tortoise shell"

    But they are pretty thick, 2.75mm

  22. #39

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by canzonenapoletana View Post
    Interesting.
    I guess I'll try these then:
    https://www.thomannmusic.com/v_picks...arly_gates.htm

    Which are of a material, where they, at least for the large version:
    https://www.thomannmusic.com/v_picks...tes_556672.htm

    that it: "Sounds similar to real tortoise shell"

    But they are pretty thick, 2.75mm
    Interesting. I've not knowingly tried acrylic plectra. I wonder if it doesn't hold up at lesser thickness (casein, e.g., I'm told is too brittle too far below approx. 1 mm).

    Thicker plectra tend to smooth brightness out of mandolin tone and require more physical force to coax volume out of single melodic lines. The obvious bevel will mitigate that, but will be prone to wear. I actually like a relatively bright tone out of mandolin. These are the reasons that I prefer the thicknesses as described above.

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  24. #40
    Registered User dulcillini's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Great advice from above posts. I can only add that I have the book, "French and Italian Tunes For Mandolin" transcribed by David Surette. David Surette has since passed away and I wonder if the book is still in print. It is a book with lovely tunes. All the best in your journey. Italian and French violin music works well on the mandolin.
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  25. #41

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    I have not much for reference as I'm just starting.
    But using thin, bendy, oval/pointy plectrum that came with my mandolin, I was not able to produce a sound of recordings of Neapolitan folk songs I was after.
    Now with the V-pick, I think I'm pretty much there, but it adds a little bit of extra scratchy/clicky sound in the high end, IDK whether the old tortoise stuff has that, too (I reckon it's pretty hard?).
    I am also now attacking the strings less reluctantly than I used to before, trying to remain at bedroom level at night, it does help with that. On those recordings, it does sound like they have no compunctions in beating the strings, either
    I now also tried a Trekel, brown:

    "Inspired by the former Rolandplektrum, the new plectrum of the Trekel Company combines slenderness with established design.
    A slight velvety surface at the tip allows a beautiful mandolinsound.
    "
    https://www.trekel.de/detailview?no=566588

    It produces a somewhat similar sound to the V-pick acryl, but slightly more dull.
    The shape is similar wo the white Woll plec where you need to sand the edges yourself, which Caterina Lichtenberg seems to use, from what I saw in videos.
    I have one of thise here, feels similar in material to the Trekel, but I don't feel like doing tha sanding now

    So... the big, triangular V-pick, while it adds that slight clicky sound, I seem to get stuck a lot less easily when tremolo picking.
    It may be a hting of practise, but if the pick shape of the Trekel makes me tire out quickly, while I can go on easily with the V-pick,
    I guess that one will be my, eh, pick!

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  27. #42

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Looks like some are making picks out of, not tortoise, but sea shell ?! ... interesting.

    https://www.pinterest.de/pin/297448750389596486/



    SEASHELL GUITAR PICKS by BeachSidePicks Made from genuine sea shell. Jazzy curved edge triangle shape. 3.0mm thick. A hand crafted guitar pick carefully shaped from seashell. Compared to plastic picks sea shell is firm and silky and glides over the strings creating less friction, allowing you to play faster, and produce a brighter more focused sound. Sea shell picks accurately respond to the touch allowing the guitarist to voice accents in reaction to the technique being applied and offer an extremely broad variety of tones. Seashell does not wear or damage strings even after heavy use and absorbs moisture and skin oil so the surface of the pick is dry and easy to hold on to. The pick shown is about 3.0mm thick, and is In the shape of a triangle with its sides slightly curved and is smaller than the standard triangular shaped pick. This shape offers three equal playing edges and gives the guitarist more control over the tip of the pick. Carefully contoured playing edges impart a snappy yet smooth release of the strings with plenty of warmth and volume and nicely balanced tones

    https://www.pinterest.de/pin/297448750397060757/

  28. #43
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Interesting though 3mm is superthick IMHO. I see they have varied thicknesses. Having played some stone picks I would think they would have produce too much pick noise but I msg order one in a thickness I prefer. Interesting concept. I live trying out different pick configurations.
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  29. #44

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Yeah, I have a hard time imagining that I'd like sea shell picks. Sea shell is mostly calcium carbonate but layered like plywood with a bit of protein and polysaccharides; that makes for very hard, rigid, and abrasion-resistant, but also potentially brittle. The brittleness will be prone to chipping; I'd think they'd have to be pretty thick to overcome that tendency. I've tried bone and antler picks, and even they were too brittle to stand up to steel strings for long. And I have to imagine that the hardness would give an unpleasantly brittle tone on an acoustic instrument strung in wire.

    Tortoiseshell (technically, sea-turtle shell) is mostly a multi-ply of keratin, a fibrous protein. That multi-ply is much more rigid than most solid single-layer plastics at given thickness, but nothing like the rigidity of sea shells. Also, the layered protein is relatively tough and resistant to both abrasion and chipping.

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  31. #45

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Now that you say it... I thought of tortoise "armor" as probably an extra hard version of what our finger nails are made of. And no idea about sea shells.
    I ordered a sample anyway, curious to try out

    While I'm at it with shooting plectrums (only links!), does anyone here use these things?
    https://www.thomann.de/de/d_grip_pic..._black_100.htm

    "D-Grip Balkan, nylon", Janicek, made in Czechia.
    They have almost the shape of those see-through Dogal plectrums, but have kind of a Dunlop "max grip" dotted surface, while the edges on the tip are made sharper.
    From my newbie perspective, they do feel and sound similar to the Dogal "strong" (which bend a bit still). But with extra good grip.

    Of all things tried, I really still do like, in principle, the rather thick (2.75mm) V-pick acryl, but alas, when jumping from the wound to the thinner strings, the sound gets rather weak in comparison, wheras it stays loud and bright with the Dogal. The feeling of the big, chunky triangle V-pick was that of less effort when tremolo picking vs. any other, esp. smaller ones. It does take quite some of the scarce space between the strings, though :D
    But if it can't get a consistent sound (as far as different strings go), it has kind of limited usefulness. I can only guess it has to do with their, large radius, curved tapering (don't sue me on terminology, no Engrish nativ) has to do with it.
    Really a shame, I love how they sound on the wound strings.

  32. #46
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    No two mandolinists use exactly the same picks, it even the same type of mandolin.
    we all sent through a similar process like you are doing and many of us continue on that same path of experimentation.
    Jim

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  34. #47
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    I started reading this thread because I was looking at my Vega bowlback today, but since this thread already seems to be heading down a pick rabbit hole ....

    I wondered whether this pick that everyone (including me !) seems to like in the Sampler #2 is actually sea shell vs. bone.

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  35. #48
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    Yeah, I have a hard time imagining that I'd like sea shell picks. Sea shell is mostly calcium carbonate but layered like plywood with a bit of protein and polysaccharides; that makes for very hard, rigid, and abrasion-resistant, but also potentially brittle. The brittleness will be prone to chipping; I'd think they'd have to be pretty thick to overcome that tendency. I've tried bone and antler picks, and even they were too brittle to stand up to steel strings for long. And I have to imagine that the hardness would give an unpleasantly brittle tone on an acoustic instrument strung in wire.

    Tortoiseshell (technically, sea-turtle shell) is mostly a multi-ply of keratin, a fibrous protein. That multi-ply is much more rigid than most solid single-layer plastics at given thickness, but nothing like the rigidity of sea shells. Also, the layered protein is relatively tough and resistant to both abrasion and chipping.


    I just think of all those poor suckers on internet banjo or guitar or tuba or accordion cafes who don't have a marine scientist on hand to weigh in with the detailed information we take for granted here.


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  37. #49

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I just think of all those poor suckers on internet banjo or guitar or tuba or accordion cafes who don't have a marine scientist on hand to weigh in with the detailed information we take for granted here.
    Yeah, poor saps.

  38. #50

    Default Re: Italian music, getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    Yeah, poor saps.
    . . . Or squid, or cod, or cyclopoid copepods, or whatever other funny-sounding aquathing you'd care to name.

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