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Thread: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

  1. #1
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    I think you're mildly trolling us by using the word "crisis" which does not even appear in the article. That's sure to make the discussion come off the wheels for those that won't read it, but it has little to do with the article, which appears to be dumbed down for a guitar audience--probably by the editor--that probably could care less about paying attention to mandolins and banjos. I respect Richard, but that's a fluff piece for the masses. YMMV. Carry on.

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    This may seem like a silly premise - and I think the word CRISIS in the title of this thread is over the top - but the article is worth a read - and only takes a minute. It's by Richard Johnston co-founder of Gryphon Stringed Instruments with Frank Ford in 1969.

    Premise and concluding sentence:
    Could it be that even if you choose to play a different fretted instrument, the sound of the guitar is so ubiquitous that it’s ringing in your ears, and as a result, the ukulele, mandolin, or banjo you choose will bend to a more guitar-like tone?
    I think the points Johnston makes are valid and that he's talking about a real trend in the past decade towards larger ukes, mellower OT banjos, and Mandolins with a stronger low-midrange. I'll just point out that one reason for these trends is the use of all three instruments to support solo singers and instrumentalists. So rather than being INFLUENCED by the ubiquity of the guitar - it's that the guitar is ubiquitous BECAUSE of its (comparatively) large range, exactly in the human voice range. (It spans the lower notes of many male singers, up to the higher notes of many women)

    In ensemble playing, the goal is often to have a unique range to your instrument, so as not to conflict with other players. In solo work, those priorities change some. And example is the way Sarah Jarosz uses the octave mandolin to support her solo singing.
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    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Here's the tag from the home page:

    Are the uke, banjo, and mandolin families going through an identity crisis, or are more Darwinian forces at work?

    I inadvertently skipped the word 'identity'.

    I wasn't trying to troll: I don't roll that way - apologies if it came off that way.

    I did think it an article worth discussing here. if only because of the points you raise.
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    I think the points Johnston makes are valid and that he's talking about a real trend in the past decade towards larger ukes, mellower OT banjos, and Mandolins with a stronger low-midrange. I'll just point out that one reason for these trends is the use of all three instruments to support solo singers and instrumentalists. So rather than being INFLUENCED by the ubiquity of the guitar - it's that the guitar is ubiquitous .
    I often wonder if the popularity of the 'ukulele is partially due to it being the "anti-guitar" and you are right that the use of the uke as a non-Hawai'ian song accompaniment instrument has influenced the tend to larger body instruments.

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Thanks for sharing such an interesting and thought provoking article, David. Good points made by all in this thread!
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Read the article, interesting perspective. On the mando related points, I don't think that the interest in lower-range mando-family instruments is quite at a point where one might think of it as a "trend" though. Let's be honest, mandolin sales are but a sliver of a fraction of total instrument sales, and octave mandolins are a teeny tiny subset of that sliver. The author sites Northfield OMs, but who would like to take a guess at how many NF OMs have been sold in the last year? I have no clue, but if it's more than 100, consider me shocked.

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    I've seen similar articles about the evolution of banjo tone. For resonators, a move away from the supertight heads, clear heads, archtops, very thin, less than 2 gram bridges and tailpiece sitting on the head as advocated in Siminoff's book. For open backs, I don't think 12" rims have taken over the world, but the scooped fingerboard makes a big difference in tone and playability for claw players, that happened sometime in the last 25 years (I think). Some of the other "trends": fingerboard inlays, no metal tonerings, I'm kind of dubious about

    As far as octaves, i guess they're not a Pono dealer.
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Isn't it funny - wasn't there an article posted on the boards a couple of months ago about how people DON'T want guitars anymore?

    So which one is it?

    That's what I love about music writers and music critics . . . some of them have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    My only comment is his focus on the Northfield octave as a new thing.
    Octave mandolins tend to be cumbersome because of the long neck—making the instrument difficult to balance—but Northfield Mandolins found an interesting solution. By adding a carved top to a small guitar-shaped body with a flat back, the company created what seems like a new hybrid with their Archtop Octave Mandolin.
    Granted there may have not been many archtop octave mandolins in the twenties and thirties, but certainly there were archtop guitar bodies used for mandocellos (for instance the iconic K-5) as well as many archtop tenor guitars made by Gibson and others. And nothing against Northfield folks—that octave is gorgeous—but they are not the first to think of that.
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    I'll go with that description of fluff piece for the article. I'm just not seeing a big shift towards "guitar tone" in non-guitar fretted instruments that the author is suggesting.

    A certain percentage of octave mandolins and mandocellos are being sold with guitar bodies instead of mandolin shapes, simply because it's easier and less expensive to re-purpose guitar body tooling for builders who already make guitars. Throw a longer neck on it, add more tuners and cut a new nut and saddle and... hey presto!... you've got an OM or 'cello that can be sold for less money than a specialized, carved archtop big mandolin. Especially the more time-consuming F-style OMs and 'cellos.

    This isn't to knock a few very fine luthiers who make GBOMs, but the reasons people are buying GBOMS instead of "Celtic" shape OMs or Gibson mandolin derived OMs doesn't have anything to do with wanting a more "guitar" tone. If anything, they're trying to avoid that.

    On the banjo front, I'm not seeing any shift towards larger or deeper open-back banjos in local Irish trad or OldTime sessions. These types may be increasingly popular for crossover Folk/Pop groups, but it hasn't made a dent in my area at least.

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Gibson apparently got it all right once. Behold, the M-6, what we all truly aspire for but for some reason just couldn't figure out.

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    I would agree with the "fluff" description. I don't find that mandolins are sounding more like guitars, especially f-hole and hybrid instruments. My 1906 F2 has a very "open" guitar-like tone, unlike most modern instruments. And this quote,"There were few mandolas, mandocellos, and octave mandolins (tuned an octave below the mandolin) available until recently, but new models are now coming out in even lower ranges." makes absolutely no sense. No one that I know of is making anything lower than a mandocello.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Aren't folks confounding the very different terms "tone" and "range," here? The article in question seems to make the point that there is increased interest (read: sales) in tenor ukes vs. soprano ukes, in octave mandolins/mandolas vs. mandolins, and in larger banjo heads/cello banjos, etc. These are primarily instruments of the ukulele, mandolin, and banjo families that are tuned to lower notes, i.e., that have lower ranges. That is not about guitar tone -- but they do have more overlap with the guitar's tuning range, however. And as others have correctly pointed out, this has more to do with performing with vocal accompaniment (especially in a solo setting, as opposed to in a band setting) than it does with any kind of desire to somehow "sound like a guitar." I don't see any trend at all into making instruments in the mandolin or uke family that have a "tone like guitar," in fact. Because they don't.

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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Totally correct that we are merging discussion here of both TONE and RANGE. But I think they're related in this case.

    In the past 15 years, I've certainly noticed more OT banjo players using skin heads, larger rims. AND, look at the tone Noam Pikelny pulls from his various resonator banjos. Even playing bluegrass on his prewar flat-top sounds a bit mellower than Earl's if I'm not mistaken.

    And an extremely well known pro said to me, a few years back - 'People often show me their mandolins and comment about how great the low end is. But I'm all about the high-mids that cut through in a quintet - without being shrill... ' or something to that effect. (we were discussing 'modern' vs 'trad' tone in A-5/F-5 type instruments)

    Some of the details of the article can be passed over, like the blurring of 'octave mandos' v mandocellos... but I think the trend is real. It's just that there may be no single REASON WHY. (although I think it has most to do with emulating solo or small ensemble performers)
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Trolling is right...

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    On the mandolin side of my world, I don't really relate to the article very well since both of my (active) mandolins are F-style. I also only have one Dobro and one Bass, although there are of course variations of both of those out there.

    But I do have 8 banjos which basically conform to 8 different tones and/or voicings: three conventionally tuned bluegrass banjos each with a different kind of tone ring, one short scale classic (nylon strung) banjo, one cello banjo (14" rim, low octave g-tuning), one long-neck folk banjo (low e-tuning), one tenor banjo and one banjo uke.

    Related to banjos, I think the identity crisis is mostly when people play a non-bluegrass banjo in a bluegrass community. Most other banjo friendly genre could probably care less. At different times I've tastefully played my banjo-uke, my classic banjo and my cello banjo in some "liberal" bluegrass and roots music jams and have only gotten friendly, interested discussion from people. I've also played my classic and cello banjos on bluegrass stages and had nothing but positive feedback about them, although for those venues my main instrument was a bluegrass banjo. It really depends on how in-your-face a person is about it.

    Clearly I can only play one banjo at a time, so why so many? At least some of it is for visual variety or for a specific kind of tone. But mostly for me, it is to cure that boredom that happens when all the songs start sounding the same.
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    I think where Richard might be coming from in writing this article is about guitar's influence on other stringed instruments as much as about what is selling in his shop and his competitor's shops lately. By that I mean the current demographic of buyers are buying open back banjos and octave mandolins more than they used to, and perhaps these are younger folks too. Who knows. Northfield blatantly used the Martin F9 as a template for it's GBOM. Good idea! Sarah Jarosz has become more and more popular, and she plays both the open back banjo and the GBOM style octave in all her shows. Oh, and her Collings MF5 too. What talented artists play on stage and sing with influences sales. Richard sells a lot of banjos and mandolins, as well as a few guitars. By the way I love his shop! What a candy store.

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    In the past 15 years, I've certainly noticed more OT banjo players using skin heads, larger rims.
    Might that not be more of a "return to the traditional sound" thing than an "evolution away from the traditional sound"?

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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    It is hard for me to understand why anyone would call Mr. Richard Johnson's article a "fluff piece"? That is just jargon. Convince me that it is "fluff"!

    Johnson documents his points with facts on uke sales trends and tuning, actual trends in mandolins as they are used and what many players are preferring on stage these days mid-range over bass responses (note -- mandolins are for more then bluegrass), and about trends in banjo rim size and tone. If you disagree with his thesis then state your case and offer your proof in opposition. Just calling it fluff is not reasoned discourse.

    It seems to me that one can disagree with a writer without being rude and dismissive. Thanks for posting it David! Personally I found it interesting.
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Banjos are in a strange situation though. What do we consider traditional sound? Classic (nylon or gut strung)? Big rim cello banjos? Open-back frailing banjos? Tenor banjos? Banjo ukes? Historically these all pre-date bluegrass banjos as they are used today.
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    Registered User Scott Rucker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by jesserules View Post
    Might that not be more of a "return to the traditional sound" thing than an "evolution away from the traditional sound"?
    Agreed. I can see how it is possible that Johnson, a renowned vintage instrument expert, associates "good" open back banjos with those beautiful Boston banjos of the late nineteenth - early twentieth century. It would be consistent with the association of many in the mandolin community of a "good" mandolin with a Gibson Lloyd Loar F5. Each is considered by many to be the pinnacle of the instrument. The same could be said of the Martin D size guitar, yet the acoustic guitar market has seen increased popularity of parlor sized guitars over the last several years.

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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by jesserules View Post
    Might that not be more of a "return to the traditional sound" thing than an "evolution away from the traditional sound"?
    I think that we'd all agree that there's no way to pin down an exact 'baseline' sound for any instruments. They've all evolved over time, and the best you can do is emulate a certain performer, or time period, or style that you admire.

    But I'm pretty sure that Johnston is refering to this: whereas the tubaphone and whyte laydie tone ring were a dominant 'sound' in the latter half of the 20th c., among american OT banjo players who could afford one (and they still are super popular), players like Adam Hurt and many others in the past couple of decades have led a revival of a plunkier tone associated with larger heads, skin heads, dobson tone rings, and even gourd and minstrel and earlier style banjos. Sometimes their motivations were to replicate an earlier sound, sometimes just looking for their own 'new' sound.

    Again, it's a 'trend' - there are still all kinds of musicians playing all kinds of instruments. Here's Adam playing a tune I love. I wouldn't call this particularly 'guitar-like' of course!

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    Dave Sheets
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    I wonder how much this has to do with the quality of modern amplification? It has gotten a lot easier to get good acoustic sound live than it used to be. Just speculating here, but I wonder if this decreases the need for acoustic instruments to "cut" really well in a live band setting? You can play an instrument with a mellower, rounder or darker tone now, live and be heard, at least in a relatively small band.
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    Default Re: Is there a crisis in mandolin, banjo and ukelele tone?

    no; I don't believe so. Thanks for asking.
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